MM
How did you get interested in performing?

WKB
Umm, I've always been interested in comedy, even as a kid. Ah, I remember seeing Seinfeld on The Tonight Show. And sort of being like, "that looks cool." I think being an only child had something to do with it. I think, you know, I think, ah, a lot of stand up comics were only children too. I think, in my theory. Ah, so I think being an only child. But also seeing. I think I grew up in an era were stand up become really big. So, I really - like was really influenced by stand up comedy on television. And then I remember seeing ah, Bill Cosby himself, which was a big thing for me. And Eddie Murphy "Delirious" his first special when he was nineteen. And those two close together and those opposite ends of the spectrum of comedy - family friendly and very profane. And I was pretty young at the time and my mom was a cool mom. Ah, it really effected me and I thought, "I want to do something like that. But probably somewhere in between." So -

MM
How old were you were you when this was happening?

WKB
Ah, I was probably ten or so, you know. And then I remember seeing Eddie Murphy, ah, "Raw" in the theatre, in a movie theatre with an audience of people and just being like - just feeling the laughter of the crowd in that movie and just like "Wow! This is something I want to do."

MM
So does that - when you're on stage does that feed you do you think?

WKB
Absolutely, I think the - the only reason to do it is because it feeds some deeper need. You know, you can't - you know, eventually money may come but it has to start from some deep seated need to, ah, feel that laughter.

MM
Are you, ah, are you vulnerable to - I mean, if, if you don't get laughter does it take you apart?

WKB
Not getting laughter is one of the worst feelings in the world. I mean, I think, you know, I've felt some pretty bad things. I mean, I'm not going to compare it to child birth because I don't know what it's like but, ah, not getting laughter is definitely one of the worst - it's, I mean, I guess it's because - as a comedian you - for the most part you experience it on a somewhat regular basis, you know, even if you're good you experience not getting laughter. I think if you're taking chances you do. So, not getting laughter that's the worst feeling. Ah, you know, I don't think I would - that's why I don't - the feeling of not getting laughter is so bad I must need to do stand up comedy or else I would quit. Because that's a really bad feeling. I mean, you know, it must be a DNA need to do stand up comedy.

MM
You have experienced it.

WKB
Oh, yes. I have experienced not getting laughter maybe more often than I should have. Maybe more often than is recommended.

MM
I know, but you've talk to a lot of comedians and they bombed for years.

WKB
Yeah.

MM
And then they stumble onto something or they come into their own voice.

WKB
The comics I like I think bomb pretty regularly. You know, the comics I'm attracted to I sort of feel like often have stories of bombing. Like even after they find their voice. Just because they're always pushing themselves to do something different. So, I don't see bombing as something that necessarily goes away. Ah, I see it as something you reckon with. You know, you sort of learn to get over. But the comics that I'm attracted to naturally probably bomb - not every night but certainly bomb often enough so that it's a part of their creative process.

MM
Do you think - I mean, do you get to be philosophical about it at all?

WKB
I think you have to become philosophical about bombing because otherwise it would probably kill you. You have to become philosophical about what it is to bomb.

MM
Yeah.

WKB
Because it would take you down otherwise. It would - it's - you have to sort of go, "Well, this is part of the process. This is how you have to grow. That means growth is coming soon." Which is all true on some level hopefully.

MM
Yeah.

WKB
But, ah, you know, there's, there's also just - it was a bad night. You know, you weren't prepared, the crowd didn't want to see you, or the crowd wasn't ready or your approach - I mean, it's - you can, you can bomb very quickly, you know, from the moment you hit the stage if you approach the stage wrong with the wrong crowd you can start bombing immediately.

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MM
Really.

WKB
Like I think there's - yeah - you can start bombing before you say anything. You can start bombing before the crowd hears any word - hears a word come out of your mouth.

MM
You probably could bomb too - you could probably be really brilliant and bomb I'll bet.

WKB
I - see, I think the comics I like the most - I, I think are all really brilliant and many of them are culturally heralded as being brilliant, and they all bombed pretty regularly throughout their careers, you know. Ah, so I don't - you know, I think the thing you try to do is not - you want, you want to kill more often than you bomb. I think it would be hard to be a comic who - you know, it's rare that a comic can bomb a lot or more often than not and be heralded as being anything great. I think there's a a few alternative comedians who play that - play with that a little bit. But, you know, you still have - the goal is laughter, you know. It's hard to - it's hard to sell comedy as art if you're not getting laughs. It's just considered generally to be seen as bad comedy. Even Andy Kaufmann wanted laughs at first. It wasn't until later that he decided to turn it into another experience, you know.

MM
Yeah. Did you ever see him?

WKB
I never - I saw him on TV on Saturday Night Live as a kid. I didn't see him - I don't think there was an opportunity for me to see him live as a kid, but, you know...you know, so I think that he's sort of the comic god king that would make it his goal to bomb. And was yet still be famous. But, he had - he was trying to be funny first. And then he got to the point where he made some choices to, "I'm going to do things to alienate people." And - but there was still something artful in there that kept people watching.

MM
Well, I think about the wrestling thing.

WKB
Exactly.

MM
And, and - well, it's - we'll we could talk about him... Let's talk a little bit about Lord Buckley. What was your first exposure?

WKB
My first exposure to Lord Buckley was a book by a writer, I think his name was Phil Berger. Ah, I think it's called "The Last Laugh". And it was a book about the history of stand up comedy, sort of the modern era of standup comedy which starts probably early - round the time of Lord Buckley. And it went up through the early '80s. And, so - and I was really interested - as soon as I - whenever I do something I'm interested I often try to read a lot about it and get books and magazines. And so, it became very natural that I started reading lots about stand up comedy. And I still do. And, this book was a book this friend of mine who was a comic told me about. And said it was a great history of stand up comedy. And it - he is featured in that book. And that was my first time hearing about Lord Buckley.

MM
Do you remember, I mean, reading "The Nazz"? Or just that that you got the name?

WKB
I remember - the thing I remember the most about when I first heard it - whenever I hear about Lord Buckley it always felt like this was the, ah, Lord Buckley was one of the windows into the modern era of stand up comedy. Is what it always felt like. It always felt like bigger than the modern era. It felt like grander - he was doing something that was grander than what stand up comedy sort of has become. Ah, for the most part. For the main stream of stand up comedy. And so it always felt like, you know, like, ah, without Lord Buckley there's no modern - there's no modern era of stand up comedy, you know. Like there's a few people that you can say that about. And he's one of the, you know - he's earlier than a lot of those people. Like Lenny Bruce is regarded as one of the modern - the beginning of the modern era but Lord Buckley predates Lenny Bruce. So, you know, it's pretty clear that Lenny Bruce was probably listening to Lord Buckley to get inspiration to be Lenny Bruce. And then Richard Pryor is listening to Lenny Bruce. And then George Carlin is listening to Richard Pryor. ??? It is all gets sort of distilled down to me. You know. So, what I'm saying is that I'm the equivalent of all those people. Not at all. [laughs]

MM
Tell me about what - why do you think he's one of the foundations. Why?

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WKB
I - that he - the beginning of stand up comedy is - the beginning of the modern era of stand up comedy is pretty cool because there were no rules yet - there were no comedy clubs. Especially when you went from the, sort of the Vaudeville/Catskill era of stand up comedy where everybody's doing kind of the same jokes and everybody's buying jokes and nobody's really writing an act and nobody's being personal. That when comics decided to be, you know, they started to be called "monologists", that Lord Buckley was firmly in that school. And, because there was no rules he could chart his own path. And that path was different than anyone before him or after him as far as I'm concerned, you know. And so, he's so different from what came before him that like, you know, that there's no way to even connect him to - - he's not borrowing from stand up comedy he's borrowing from jazz musicians and borrowing from street parlance. Which is something that is very common now: for comics to talk in street parlance. You know, and it also - you don't have to even do it as a character. You can just take these words and read them. But he was the first to really sort of inject that into a comedy nightclub setting. You know, I mean, who knows who was the first but one of the first to really blow that wide open. , again, it's that sort of like the links in the chain. You can't have - it would be really hard to have Lenny Bruce without that. You know, really hard. And, and so, Richard Pryor does it later in the '70s or the late '60s into the '70s - like he's doing it in a whole different way - but, clearly, you know, it's like, you know, it, it took Lord Buckley to do it so that Richard Pryor could do it from his - from a completely different authentic place, you know. You know, whether - and I think sometimes who knows if Richard Pryor listened to Lord Buckley or, I mean, I don't know but certainly it means that there's just are all these things that have to happen culturally so as a culture we accept the new wave of something, you know.

You know, it's like the thing they say, I think it's in physics or science "standing on the shoulders of giants"? You know, in stand up comedy that's very clear. And we - many of the giants we stand on the shoulders of are famous and well known but not all of them are, you know. I think like I said, I think a lot of people look at Lenny Bruce as being the first of the modern era but clearly Mort Sahl who's still alive and kicking would go, "Slow down everybody.", you know. And then Lord Buckley, of course, is somewhere on the other plane going, "Slow down - " well, he's probably not saying like that. But, he, you know -

MM
"You've got to cool yourself."

WKB
Exactly, exactly. I would say that there's, you know, stand up comedy can be a lucrative business but it's also, like, you know, for people who are trying on the new wave they're not always the ones who are the most known, you know.

MM
You're a fan of Lord Buckley.

WKB
Certainly, yeah.

MM
What is it about him that, that, ah, - I mean, you're a kind of specialized fan because you're in the same business.

WKB
Yeah. Ah, I mean, I think, for me, I, I'm a fan of "do what you do to the nth degree." You know, I'm a fan of Lord Buckley because he is an example of an artist who like, "I'm not just kind of dong it. I'm going to push it as far as possible." And so that you become more - you - you become undeniable in that way I believe. That if you do what you do to the nth degree you become the only person who does that, you know. And it becomes undeniable that people have to sort of reckon with you. Refuse to like you or not like you.

MM
Yeah.

WKB
And so, Lord Buckley is forcing the audience to make a choice: "Are you with me or against me? Are you with me or against me? I want you to be with me." Lord Buckley has a very seductive way of doing that. "I want you to be with me but I'm not going to feed it to you. You have to - you have to meet me." And I'm a fan of performers like Lord Buckley who say, "You have to come to me. And if you come up to me - if you come to me we'll have a great time. But, you may just stay over there. And you won't have as much fun." So, I'm a fan of performers who sort of demand or encourage the audience to, ah, like "this is an experience we're all having but I get to choose how we do this." Whereas, I think there's a lot of stand up comedy that is like meeting the audience. "I will go to the audience and see where they're at. And wherever they're at I'll meet them there." And I'm a fan of comics like Lord Buckley who, "I'm going to do what I do and I heartily encourage you to join me. But, I've already decided what I'm going to do.", you know, like this is, this is the experience we're going to have, you know. And I think it's a harder way to be a performer. It's a harder way to make a - it's certainly a harder way to make a dollar.

MM
Yeah.

WKB
You know, umm - I think every now and then performers can catch that wave and suddenly be the arbiter. It's very rare - I've seen like this - it's very rare that the best comic in the country is also the most famous and highly acclaimed. A lot of times the best comic in the country is somebody that the comedy industry, in and of itself, doesn't actually think is the best - the comic who sort of makes the most money is not usually the best comedian according to the industry, you know. But, you know, so, Lord Buckley did not get the acclaim during his lifetime that he deserved. Because he was so far out that somehow - for some reason nobody was ready for it because it was so ahead of it's time. Whereas, like, you know, Lenny Bruce got a lot of acclaim during his lifetime. Probably not all he deserved but then, by the time he'd built to George Carlin where it's like he certainly got all the acclaim he deserved in his lifetime because people were ready for it by that point. And Richard Pryor's also the same. Like he, you know, Richard Pryor died - Richard Pryor and George Carlin died knowing that they were loved, you know. Whereas a lot of those performers - I don't know if Lenny Bruce died knowing that. And who knows, I - you know - and the whole thing with Lord Buckley at the end with the Cabaret License being - that whole - all that nonsense about that - it's like who knows what they thought but they certainly went out of their way, you know.

MM
Yeah.

WKB
So, I'm always a fan of that.

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MM
Lord Buckley talks about a book he read called "The Horse's Mouth". In which - do you know it? Joyce Carey was the English author and, [he depicts] s a mad painter this guy Gully Jimson. And Buckley's telling this story onstage and he says, "And, you know, he's up on a sign and he's painting it. And he falls off and he's dying so they take him to the hospital. And he's in the hospital and he's dying. You know, it's a Catholic hospital so there's nuns. And he's going out but he's going out crazy. And he's pinching the nurses and he's sneaking drinks. And one of the nuns comes over to him and says, 'Mr. Jimson, at such a terrible serious time such as this don't you think you should be praying a little more and laughing a little less?' And he looks up at her and says, 'It's the same thing, sister." And flips out." Buckley was in Columbus Hospital in New York City when he died. So, how did he go out? Did he go out swingin', you know? Did he -

WKB
Yeah. I would imagine that if Lord Buckley could have that he went out swingin'. I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say that Lord Buckley went out swingin'. You know, there - I don't see him going out any other way, you know. There's, you know, that would be my belief.

MM
You know, when you were talking about the kind of the lineage or the, the progression of comedy and comics, it almost sounds like somebody picks up on somebody's - they go, "Oh, I get what he's doing."

WKB
Uh huh.

MM
And then they throw themselves in there.

WKB
Uh huh.

MMT
Then they pass it on or something. Do you think that's the way it works?

WKB
I think the lineage of comedy is much like - it's like a river with the tributaries that come off of it and end up doing their own thing. I think that you have Lord Buckley and then off of that springs like, you know - and Lenny Bruce is borrowing from Lord Buckley but also borrowing from Mort Sahl and he's borrowing from some jazz musicians and he's borrowing from some strippers in a strip club. And he's borrowing from marijuana. Like everybody has all these different influences but in the middle is themselves. And then he passes that on to Richard Pryor who and, and - George Carlin and there are from totally different upbringings. George Carlin being from middle - sort of working class background. And Richard Pryor being from a poor background growing up in a whorehouse. So, even though they are both borrowing from the same source they can't help but take it in different directions. I think that goes forward to you know - Eddie Murphy borrowed from Richard Pryor but it's also - in some ways you can follow it back to Lord Buckley. And also other performers because Eddie Murphy is also borrowing from Red Foxx and borrowing from Elvis and he's borrowing from Bruce Lee. You know, like there's all these different things - you can't help but see the lineage but also in the middle is the person. There was an article written about me - I think it's how you found me that - I was compared to Lord Buckley and I would never expect anybody to see any sort of Lord Buckley in me. And I'm highly flattered but also like, ah, I don't want to start putting that on posters. You know, that might create an image that I'm not living up to. Not that I'm better or worse or anything but it's just like I'm not doing what he's doing.

I certainly believe that a lot of comics borrowed from Lord Buckley. And a lot of comics are borrowing from a lot of different sources. And so, you can see a little bit of Buckley in Lenny Bruce. Ah, but Lenny Bruce is also borrowing from Mort Sahl. And he's borrowing from the Bebop, from the Bebop jazz musicians and he's borrowing from the Beatniks and he's borrowing from strip clubs and from marijuana. And, and, you know, he's borrowing from all these places and some are weighted. He may borrow a lot of this and a little bit of this but in the middle is Lenny Bruce. And so that's where the voice comes from. It's like you sort of - you grab all these different influences but then you put it - if you put it inside of you and you work through them out comes your voice. And then Richard Pryor hears "Lima, Ohio" that album and goes, "Wait a minute. I want to be more like that." But then, Richard Pryor had also been borrowing from Bill Cosby. So, he's borrowing from Lenny Bruce and from Bill Cosby. Then he starts to borrow from his own autobiography. And he starts to borrow from the struggle of black people that was going on at the time. But, in the middle is Richard Pryor. And so, nobody can ever do that thing again. He's such a unique voice that nobody's even come close to. I think the closest I've ever seen to that is Whoppi Goldberg and her first Broadway show was very that sort of character based real comedy. Then Whoppi Goldberg is also borrowing from the Bay Area and she's - she's directed by Mike Nichols and all these things. But in the middle is Whoppi Goldberg and it sort of keeps - every performer is sort of - we're, we're, hopefully more than the sum of our influences. If it looks exactly like Lord Buckley then we're not doing our job. You know, so, but, in the middle is you, the performer. And certainly Lord Buckley was borrowing from a lot of different sources too. But nobody else could have been Lord Buckley.

MM
Well, tell me what is unique about him?

WKB
I think a lot of what's unique about Lord Buckley is the era in time when he chose to do that. And maybe he didn't choose. It chose him but, you know, he's certainly used, ah, sort of the patois of African Americans, of African American culture and a lot of jazz culture and a lot of, ah, jazz language. And, at that point, black and white were highly segregated. You know, I'm not the first to notice that. Ah, were highly segregated so for him to go on a television show looking like a comedian of the day in a tuxedo and very nattily attired but to do a Louis Armstrong impression is like - I mean, I'm sure there were people who were like, "We have to get him off the television show." I'm sure, you know, that in and of itself was a bold choice. That and the fact that he was able to do that and not - and still - because some people would do that and it would seem like they were mocking the person they were imitating. But if it's clear that you love the person that you are imitating then it's more accepted by the culture that you're sort of borrowing it from. So, I mean that it's clear that he loved Louis Armstrong and loved these things he was doing. So, there was an authenticity to it that, you know - in the hands of the wrong - in the hands of a lesser performer or a person who doesn't love the source material it becomes exploitation. But, it's clear - it's pretty clear with Buckley that it's not exploitation. That it's, ah, it's tribute, you know. So, I think that's - I think a lot of what he did - just because you can't help but look at it without looking at the time in which he lived in, you know. And how dangerous it was to be a comedian, you know. The fact that he basically loses his Cabaret License over stuff that, you know, that they were able to sort of stop you from performing by just taking away your Cabaret Card, you know. And we're not that far away from Lenny Bruce being arrested for swearing on a stage, you know. So, it was really nothing that a performer goes through now - not anywhere close to that, you know. For a performer to be arrested on stage now you would probably have to kill someone. You can even punch somebody and get away with that depending upon the circumstances. But, there's - you - the idea of getting arrested for your words right now as a, as a comedian is like - it's - I believe it's unheard of, you know. Certainly you can offend audiences and certain audiences will walk out and I've had all that happen. But I've never felt the threat of the police, you know. Where - or the threat of the of "The Man", you know. Whereas I feel like Lord Buckley lived during the threat of "The Man", you know. And so, certainly at the end of his life, he sort of had to pay the price for that, you know. For being so far in his own space. And, you know, for, you know, race mixing as they called it back then, you know.

MM
You know Jon Hendricks the - Lambert, Hendricks and Ross jazz guy. Umm, he told me - he was a friend of Lord Buckley's and he told me that - he said, "For all intents and purposes Lord Buckley was a black man." And Jon Hendricks is a black man. But, he said that, umm, he said that, "You know, they didn't bust Anita." Meaning Anita O'Day. "They didn't bust Peggy Lee. And they were both shooting shit." That's what he said, you know. "But, they busted Billie, and they busted Monk and they busted Miles." He said and, and, they busted Lord Buckley too . I mean, I don't think it was a big conspiracy but people must - there must have been something in the air or something.

WKB
Some performers threaten the status quo in such a way that they end of paying the price for it. And I think that - that's still can be true. Like I think certainly you may not get arrested but there are still cases of performers threatening the status quo in such a way that they pay the price for it. I mean, even if you go somewhere so - like The Dixie Chicks, you know, when they - when Natalie Mains said George W. Bush - she wasn't proud that he was the president - or that he was from Texas.

MM
Yeah.

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WKB
You know, their whole career suffered and is still suffering because of that. So, certainly if you threaten the status quo significant enough you will pay the price no matter what your color is. Especially if you're doing it and defending people that you shouldn't be, you know, you shouldn't be defending or that the status quo is in support of. And I think Lord Buckley is a great example of that. He clearly threatened - that Monk, Billie Holiday and Lord Buckley threatens the status quo in such a way that, that the powers that be say we have to do something about this, you know, In a way that like Anita O'Day and Peggy Lee, while their shooting shit, they're not flaunting like their influences in the same way that, you know - they're not, they're not seeming to be in love - I mean, I'm sure they were - I'm sure they liked black people and whatever but they weren't like flaunting that love of black people in the way that Lord Buckley did. But, certainly that, you know - it wasn't until 1967 that the anti-miscegenation law was struck down around the country. So -

MM
'67?

WKB
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so it was the Loving case -

MM
Oh, right, yeah.

WKB
It wasn't - that didn't happen until 1967. So, certainly a man - a white man in the '50s whose talking like a black guy on television and in and out of nightclubs, is arousing the suspicion of Johnny Law.

MM
This kind of brings us to the point where - I was talking to you in the email about, ah, the concept of appropriation, you know. What's your take on his use of, of - I mean, you talked about it being a tribute - any other thoughts on the -

WKB
Well, as far as appropriation goes that - it's funny - appropriate and inappropriate appropriation, which is too many times to use the word "appropriate", ah, is in the eye of the beholder. And I certainly respect anyone's right to say that they do like or don't like something. It's only through sort of a critical mass of people that something gets considered to be OK or not OK. Umm, and Lord - from my perspective Lord Buckley - I feel like what he's doing is fine. I feel like he's doing a great job of what he's doing. And, and, you know, doing a better job with it than I can do. I can't do a good Louis Armstrong at all. But, I certainly feel like the issue with appropriation is that eventually people start to copy the copier and then they become not - they're certainly not doing as good a job of it. And they're not doing it with the same love and respect. So, it's always a little - it's always a little dangerous with that sort of type - that type of performer, you know. I think it's funny, I mean, you can see it in, in, in hip hop right now. There's only been one really, credible white hip hop artist which is Emimen. I mean, there's many other white people that can do it. But one has been acclaimed by the masses as being OK. But there is something about the way that he does it that Black America is able to accept that he's doing it from an authentic place. That a lot of other ones come and go and we're like - and Black Americans - a Black American who listens to hip hop isn't sure of it. It's a pretty rare thing to be able to get away with it. You know, to be able to do it in a way that, that people go, "I think that this person is on my side."

You know, or, "I believe this person is on my side." And Lord Buckley was able to do that.

MM
Well, how do you think he was able to do that?

WKB
You know, I certainly don't know - I certainly don't know Lord Buckley's biography by heart but I would imagine that he must have actually hung out with black people, you know. I mean, it becomes clear that like that he had friends that were black. That he hung out with black people. He certainly hung out with jazz musicians. I would imagine he probably did that from an early age. And, therefore, he's not making fun of - he's - he's sort of telling - he's sort of sharing the stories, you know, and sharing the juice. And at that level he's also doing something where he's sort of the bridge between those two cultures. Because a black performer is not going to get the same access that he gets by virtue of his skin color. Even though Lord Buckley was so authentic in that thing I've, I've known some people who thought maybe he was part black. You know, so that like, you know - which is something that - which is a compliment from black people when - when a black person thinks you are part black what they are saying, "I like you a lot." So, I think that he was doing it so lovingly and authentically that people sort of went, "Wait a minute. Does he have a black parent somewhere? Is there a fly in the buttermilk?" So, I think that that's - Lord Buckley clearly was doing it from a place of love, you know. So, that a certain critical mass of Black Americans were able to say, "Yes, we can accept this and celebrate this."

MM
Tell me what, what your impressions of his voice - the pipes - the -

WKB
There're, there're some performers who, not only are the words important, which clearly the words important to Buckley, but also their voice is like an instrument. And, ah, I always admired those performers where it's like - it's not just about what I say but how I say it. And how the words sort of fall out of my mouth. And that's the other part of Lord Buckley that I feel like he's very musically inspired. And then clearly he's spent a lot of time hanging out with musicians. And a lot of - there's a few performers who are like that where clearly it's - it's that their voice is the pattern - they're using the patterns of other things in which to express comedy. And so, Lord Buckley clearly was influ - I think just - it's very clear he was steeped in the jazz era and that affected his delivery, you know. I think if Lord Buckley showed up right now he would still be sort of like outside of the mainstream as he was then. I think - I don't think that there's anything - we haven't caught up to him yet, you know. Like I don't think there's, there's - it's still, you know - comedy - mainstream comedy doesn't go to places that he goes. Where normally you think, "Well, now we've caught up to that place." But, we still haven't caught up to that place yet, you know. I think his voice is a big part of that. That he was - and I've always liked to do that like try to borrow from other art forms outside of comedy to get inspiration from, you know. So, umm, and, and I think that that's it

MM
Could, could he pull that off today?

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WKB
I think there are performers who are avant garde today on the stand up comedy scene and who are doing thing far outside the mainstream. And I think stand up comedy has created a place for those performers now. The common term for them is "alternative comedy" or "alt comics". And now there's a lot of Alt Comic venues where performers like that, who don't feel like they can play in the mainstream clubs, can go and find audiences that want to hear alternative comedy. Umm, I, myself can sort of go back and forth between those two clubs. I can play the mainstream clubs and play the alternative clubs. Not that I'm great at both but my act sort of works in both places. Umm, so I think that Lord Buckley - there would be a place for him. It would be - even those people would be like, "This is different." I don't think it would be like, "Oh, another one of these guys.", you know. I think the trope of a white person talking like a black person is very used a lot now. And a lot of it's used for evil so I think that, in that sense, he would have to be careful about how he did that. I have friends, I have white comic friends that do that - but there's always a discussion about: is this - where is this coming from? So, I think that he sort of - not that he started - I'm sure there were other - there were certainly other white performers who did it before Lord Buckley who did it in blackface and certainly did it in a way that was offensive. And so I think that has become a stock comedy staple. But not done anywhere near as well as he did it, you know. The big thing is that it, in and of itself, is not as unique as it was but what he was doing with it is still very unique.

MM
Do you think he would still struggle though?

WKB
I said this recently to someone. The thing about stand up comedy is that nobody is owed fame and fortune. You know the thing about someone like Andy Kaufmann, who probably should have struggled, you know, but he found something that did - the voice he did on "Taxi" that character of Latka, made him such a million - made him such a successful, famous performer that he was able to do all the things that we find to be strange.

MM
Yeah.

WKB
That, without the character from "Taxi", we wouldn't - we might be talking about him as a cult figure. I mean, he's still a cult - but, as an unknown comic who was in New York and never made it. And every city has comics like. The people in that city will be like, "That comic was the most brilliant comic we had. But, he just didn't - he or she didn't break through because of one reason or another or never found the right vehicle." So, who knows, it's very possible that that character that Lord Buckley did - suddenly he's doing voices of kid's cartoons. You know, there's a lot of comics who end up going in that direction. Like the the guy who odes the voice of Spongebob Squarepants was a comic. He's still maybe a stand up comic. And a very brilliant comic who ended up doing the voice of Spongebob Squarepants. And so now he can do whatever he wants to do, you know. So, it's like there's more at venues for performers to be, to apply their wares and trades and do different things. Ah, so who knows what would have happened with Lord Buckley. I think that he certainly was so talented that had he been around there would have been a place for him. It's just fame and fortune who knows, you know. Certainly he would have been recognized. I believe he would have been recognized.

MM
That disc I gave you has a "Beanie & Cecil" cartoon on it

WKB
Oh, wow.

MM
He does - he plays a beatnik named Go Man Van Gogh.

WKB
There you go, see, there you go. It would have been a natural place for him. I mean, I think there's so many different entertainment venues now. And also, who knows, Lord Buckley could have had a hit YouTube, ah, regular YouTube show that got four million hits every time he posted a new video. You know, there's a lot of places now performers can go to find their audience. You know, Lord Buckley would have been respected if he existed right now he would have been respected in his time. You know, the rest of it is all like fame and fortune, who knows.

MM
Well, that's an interesting thing. Because I think, you know, he was a very successful Vaudevillian. He was making a thousand dollars a week in The Depression, you know. But, in the fifties, after Vaudeville keeled over he was scuffling, you know. What you said was really right on - that there's no guarantee of fame and fortune. Well what, as a comedian, what would have driven him to do it? I mean, he had a wife and some kids so he had to make some money.

WKB
Yes, yes.

MM
But, you know, he could have been a criminal too.

WKB
I think the true comics, which I'd like to consider myself one but I'll let history decide, are driven by some sort of need inside themselves to be, not only the center of attention but also elicit laughter from people. Like there's some sort of primal need that we have inside of us that if, if it wasn't some sort of primal wound we would just be the funny guy at the office. Or the funny woman at the office. But, because it was some sort of primal wound that like, "I can't just be a funny investment banker. I have to be a - I have to be onstage. And I have to get the acclaim of others." So, I think there some sort of - there' something really primal about that that I don't, you know, one day they'll be able to map all the human genome and tell us where that is and maybe they'll be able to fix it. But, as of right now, I think that performers like Lord Buckley, especially the ones who are so driven outside of the mainstream, there's something inside of them that they can't, they can't listen, they can't turn off, you know. Because, certainly, you know, as you said, he was making a thousand dollars during The Depression and once that went away a sane person would go, "Well, maybe I should get a job in a factory or maybe I should, you know, get - maybe I should go back to school." But, there's something inside of the true comedians where it's , "No, I have to, I have to do this." And it doesn't always end up in a big mansion for those people, you know. Probably more often than not it ends up sort of like - at best it ends up with a steady career that you can feed your family on but at worst it ends up sort of - you know, I know a lot of great comics who don't do comedy anymore, you know. Because at some point you go, "I have to make some choices for my life." So -

MM
Now, I've, I watched a number of your videos that I could find on YouTube and your website and stuff. And, umm, I - you couldn't convince me that you do it just for laughs. You know, that, that it isn't just someone applauding you, appreciating you - there's also something you're saying that, that - I mean, unless I'm completely wrong -

WKB
No, no -

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MM
You want to get something over - you want to, at least, get it on their table for them.

WKB
No, I, I certainly - after you do comedy for a few years you start to decide, well, I think, and it happens in different spots. You usually get to the point you go, "What kind of comic do I want to be?" And there's - on a basic level there's the kind of comic that wants to do what the audience thinks is funny. And there's the comic who wants to do what they think is funny. And, once you choose the way of what - of what you personally think is funny you go a much harder path but ultimately a more satisfying path. And so, I sort of chose - I sort of found that when I talked about race that audiences would tense up and not want to hear about it. And so, I would struggle, "Well, I shouldn't talk about it at all. Or I should talk about it a lot." And, eventually, I was like, you know, this has become important enough to me that I want to make this like one of the focuses of my act. And it's - and knowing that - a lot of comics talk about race but they don't do it - they way they do it I feel like it doesn't put anything on the table as you say. It sort of just - it's sort of using it as a target. It's something to poke at. And I was certainly inspired by the types of comedians who - I want to - I want to make you laugh and, at the same time I want to feel like I'm challenging your thinking. Or, at least, presenting with some angle and it's from a different angle that you haven't seen before. Like, I feel like I do - there's jokes I do where it's, "Look at this thing we all look at from a different angle." There's jokes I do where I go, "Look at this angle that you've never looked at before." You know, it's sort of like, it's sort of like, one is like, "We're all were staring at it. How come we didn't all see this?" And the other side is like, "We didn't even look at this. Why aren't we looking at this?"

MM
Yeah.

WKB
And, for me, that's the most satisfying type of laughter. But the goal - yeah - so, I certainly want people to be sort of pushed a little bit or to be sort of - like there's also a reveal that happens where people go, "Oh, I - I think that too." I love that kind of laughter. The, "I didn't now anybody else thought that." I'm a big fan of that. And I'm also a big fan of like the, "Oh, my god, I never - I never thought that.", you know. So, those are my two favorite types of laughs but they both end up in laughter. You know, like I, I don't want to do a show that ends with people - that just has an audience that goes, "Uh, ummm, yep - that's right." You know, like, I'm still trying - I still want jokes, you know. And I say this: in comedy, you know, and certainly in Lord Buckley probably felt this. You don't get points for degree of difficulty. It's not like diving. Where it's like - where you can try a really hard dive and mess it up but they give you points, "Well, you tried a really hard dive." In comedy you don't get points for that. You still have to end up in the same place where people - especially now where people are laughing big, healthy gut laughs. No matter how - how you got there is up to you. So, I found with myself that I can't feel good about myself as a performer unless I'm really challenging myself and therefore the audience at the same time, you know. And certainly not every joke is the same level of difficulty and certainly we all have jokes that are silly and goofy, which are great. But I find like a lot of the meat of the stuff I do is - pushes a little bit.

MM
How about - umm - how about, umm - techniques- I mean, I don't know if this is too sort of esoteric a question but - is there anything - that you can see in Lord Buckley, in his delivery in his, his art, as it were, that is incredible but not so obvious?

WKB
I think one thing that I find remarkable in Lord Buckley is that, that, you know, there's a very seductive element to Lord Buckley - like he is - he's challenging some big ideas. He's certainly taking on a big space on the stage with that character, the character of being Lord Buckley, by calling himself Lord Buckley - like there's sort of a bigness of the whole thing - ah, the words he's using the hipster slang he's using - but, he's doing it in a way that's sort of like very - he could do that in a way that was sort of pushing people away or that was sort of ramming it down their throats - but the way he does it sort of like, "Come on, come on, come with me." Which I think a lot of comics, who are doing things that are sort of outside of what you'd expect, often will come through with the sort of barrel down - sort of the Louisville slugger approach. Like you sort of [mimes someone swinging a bat) "Ah, ah!! Ah!!!!" And sort of like, "I'm going to push this into your heads whether you want it or not." Whereas Lord Buckley there was clearly like a, "Just come with me. Come with me. It'll be..." Like he really sets a stage in a way that comics don't really do now. You go up there and start doing the jokes right away. And Lord Buckley really sort of like - it's like getting into a warm bath, "Ahhhhh!" And then once your in the bath it's like, "Ah, this feels good." So, I think there's a seductive element to him that's sort of a, you know - that you don't really see - you don't- like comedy right now is really quick - for the most part it's like get to the jokes as quick as possible because of television. Whereas Lord Buckley lived in a time when the rules were still being invented and so he could really approach it in a really sort of more gentle manner - which is the kind of comedy that I've become attracted to - that's the kind of comedy I've become attracted to later in my career. Like slowing it down a little bit. Yeah.

MM
How long have you been doing this?

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WKB
Ah, I started - I moved to San Francisco thirteen years ago.

MM
You're twenty-eight?

WKB
No, I'm thirty-seven.

MM
Oh. Why did I think you were twenty-eight.

WKB
You might have read something that I was twenty-eight at the time.

MM
Maybe ???

WKB
Yeah, I've been at it for a little bit, you know. I think that ah - and it's been in the last few years that I've really figured out like, I've sort of taken a page of out of that book of the era of comedy that Lord Buckley's a part of - like I'm not going to the clubs as much as I used to - I'm renting a space and putting on my own show. So, I don't have to depend on - and so, once you are in a space and you decide to put on your own show and get your own posters and invite, and invite people in -

MM
Go ahead.

WKB
Once you - once you get your own space and have your own show, everybody that comes through the door is coming to see you. Which creates a completely different type of audience...

MM
Oh, yeah.

WKB
...then you would get in a comedy club. Yeah. I mean - I would have to say that for me, seeing him do the Louis Armstrong is really sort of just like - to know that how famous Louis Armstrong was at the time and that there's sort of a weird meta thing happening that Louis Armstrong was more famous than he was but the race narrative at the time was that the white was bigger than the black. But - there's this weird thing that's happening that's sort of happening on all these levels that like socially he's bigger than Louis Armstrong. But, financially and power and fame wise Louis Armstrong is bigger than him - and he's doing it out of love and respect for Louis Armstrong and not out of sort of like making fun of - almost like there's a PhD dissertation to be written about that. You know, and especially at that point in the country's history, that era of history - and, of course, "The Nazz" is a big, you know, that's his Led Zepplin "Stairway to Heaven" . I think that's my favorite thing to watch him do, yeah.

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MM
You know, when you were talking about the, this kind of dichotomy or this almost cognitive dissonance of, of Louis Armstrong's success, status you know, what level he'd gotten to - and then the difference in the, - Buckley's a white performer - I was thinking of the Zen koans? When you - when you see - and you're going "Whoa!"

WKB
There's no figuring it out. Like what is sound of one hand clapping?

MM
Well, you know what came up for me when you were saying that was the notion that, umm, Buckley was - we think maybe he finished the eighth grade. So, he's, he's one of those autodidacts, right? He - but, at the same time, there's almost a sense it - to me, I just throw this out because maybe it'll open something up but - the idea that there was a lot - in him there was - it was instinctual a lot of it. I don't know how he - I don't know if he would have said to you, "Oh, yeah, I juxtaposed Louis Armstrong and myself.

WKB
Umm, umm, I know.

MM
I mean, is there, is there in comedy - it's not necessarily an intellectual process, yeah?

WKB
Comedy is not necessarily an intellectual process. And I think, like everything, like all art, it's easy to deconstruct it when you're standing - when you're not the thing, you're standing outside of it. You can sort of go, "Oh, look what he's doing here. And this is what's happening." But, I'm certain that all of that comes from, as far as from the performer and Lord Buckley, is that it comes from this instinct inside of you that, "I want to do this thing. I love Louis Armstrong. Hey, I can do his voice pretty well. Alright let's do it. Hey, people like him they'll like me doing his voice.", you know. And there probably is, whether he's aware of it or not, every performer - I'm sure there's some level that he - on some level he's aware of the fact that it's - you know, that there's a certain - it's funny - it's more interesting because of the white guy who sounds like Louis Armstrong than if he's a black guy that sounds like Louis Armstrong. But that adds something to it.

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MM
Yeah.

WKB
Whether he knew that or not certainly he benefited from that, you know. As we all benefit from the, ah - when - it's like the opposite effect - it's like when you do something that nobody expects you - that's where laughter comes from. It's like, "I didn't expect that.", you know, it's one of the big places where laughter comes from. So, I think that, once you have that feeling inside, like, "I want to do this thing." A lot of times comedy can turn into an intellectual pursuit, "OK, how do I want to do this?" And I think certain comics approach it real intellectually. I think, from what I understand, Chris Rock does that. Like he gets real like, "I want to talk about this thing that I feel. Let's really figure this out.", you know. And so, I think some comics are like that. Whereas some comics are like Bill Hicks where they go on stage and they just start talking. He had the subject in his head and some few ideas and sort of works it all out live in front of an audience, you know. So, I think that there's different types of performers but it all starts from a place of like passion, you know. I think Seinfeld said all comedy comes from anger. Which is fine when it comes from someone like, you know, Jerry Seinfeld. But all comedy comes from places like, "Hey!" And then it's up to you what to do with that feeling, you know. And as an average person goes, "Hey!" and then lets it go. But, a comic goes, "Hey! Why did I say 'Hey!'? Why didn't I say - why didn't he say 'Hey!'?", you know. And it starts to - you start to break it down into - and that's where the jokes come in.

MM
Do you think that Lord Buckley's humor came, came out of anger? I mean, is that just a given?

WKB
I, I think all comedy comes from a disconnect. Or from some sort of like - it doesn't have to necessarily be anger, but it has to be some sort of like, "Things aren't working out the way I expected them to.", you know Or, "This is different than I would expect or - Why don't people?" And, even, "Why aren't these people in this room hipper?", you know. And maybe that's - who knows and he's like, "You know what, I'm going to make them hipper.", or, , "Why aren't these people having a - ", like he comes from, "What aren't these people hip to what I'm hip to?", like, "You know what, I'm going to go onstage and figure - ", you know. That, on some level, is - anger with people - sometimes people think of that as like being a negative thing. But, it's really just like, "I'm going to change this.", you know. That's really part of what anger is. It's like, "I'm going to change - I'm going to make this different." And I think that's what comedy - a lot of comedy comes from like, "I'm going to - I'm going to change the air in the room.", you know. "I'm going to - ", - shock comedy or , "I'm going to - " but he wasn't - again, it's not shock, he's seductive - he's like sort of like - I mean, I don't - I have no idea what was in his head but I feel like it definitely comes from a thing of like, "Things are the way I want them to be. So, I'm going to make them different.", you know.

MM
He talks a lot , in a number of routines, about love.

WKB
Uh hah.

MM
And - just, I mean - from your position as a student of comedy, umm, I mean - in the context of the 1950's did that, does that seem a little radical?

WKB
Well, I mean, I think it's still would seem radical to go on a comedy club stage and talk about love. It's still radical to talk about love. It's real, it's hard to talk about positive things in stand up comedy. Umm, because - so, as we - as I said earlier, so much comedy comes from anger and anger's a really good, easy place to draw laughter out of. Ah, it's harder to draw laughter out of, "Everything's' great." It's harder to draw laughter out of, "I'm so in love." It's easier to draw laughter out of "I hate my wife.", you know. Like, so, I think in that sense that would still be a radical thing to do. Certainly it was radical in the 1950's where, you know, people probably didn't say the word love as often as they do now. But, I mean, you know, just, ah, I feel like it's certainly a radical idea now. It's hard to write jokes from that place. So - and I don't know that that's going to change. It's because, it's a very easy place to, you know - it's easy to laugh from a place of pain. Or it's easier to draw laughter out of places of pain or anger. Because you sort of - there's just a lot of intensity of emotion. But the intensity of emotion that is love...

MM
Yeah.

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WKB
...it's just a more challenging place to write jokes from. And, like I said, comics don't get points for degree of difficulty. So, a lot of comics, we all sort of go, "I'm going to go with the anger thing.", you know. Like, you know, "I'm going to go with that." Ah, I think, ah, that Lord Buckley clearly - if he showed up today he would still be ahead of his time.

MM
Because of that?

WKB
Because of his whole approach. Yeah, because of that. That would be another way in which he would be ahead of his time. If he showed up at UCB, which is the big alt theater in LA and New York - if he showed up at UCB they'd still be like, "This is different.", you know. Even though we're now sixty years past that.

MM
Yeah. I was going to say he, he would have been one hundred and four this year. It would have been a hell of a stand up comedy -

WB
Yes, which, you know, I think George Burns crossed that barrier.

MM
Oh, that's right.

WKB
Just got to it but, yeah - so, I think that be - he would - it would be a - that would be different in and of itself. But, even if, ah, a forty-five year old Lord Buckley showed up right now, in a time machine, he would still be ahead of where we're at.

MM
Wow, the centenarian stand up comic hipster. Hey, umm, I don't think I asked you this before but, you know, senior moment here. Umm, what about his timing? And what about timing in general with comedy and, you know -

WKB
I think timing is different for every comedian. All the great comics have different types of timing. Like, you know, somebody like Steven Wright, ah, it's really slow and deliberate. Ah, Mitch Headburg is another really slow and deliberate comic. Ah, but then you go with some comics like, ah, you know, like, like Rodney Dangerfield, the time is much quicker. And it's much more rapid fire. Or you go with like Chris Rock. He often says that he has the timing of Hip Hop. Like it's a very - it's a very sort of like - he almost is a verse, chorus, verse type approach to his act. Which means you sort of get caught up in the repetition of what he's doing sometimes. And that's part of the thing is that, "I want you to get caught up in the rhythm here." So, every great comic, I think, in some way, reinvents the language. Ah, every comic, I believe, every great comedian reinvents the language. And the way in which they use the language becomes a new way for us to approach the language. I think Carlin is a great example of - he did it probably twice in his career. Like, you know, where he reinvented our approach to language. And he would do it multiple times in the one set, you know. And I think that, ah, that Lord Buckley's no different than that, his approach to the language. If you were to do it like he did it, you'd be looked to being doing it like Lord Buckley did it. You wouldn't be able to sort of cloak it. If you were to like, "I'm going to talk just like him." Somebody'd be like, "You're doing Lord Buckley." And I think that that's true of, of all the great comedians. Like there's a way to do Pryor where it's like, "Oh, you're doing Pryor." You know, there's a way to do - you know, a lot of black comedians get accused of that - a lot of black comedians have a lot of Eddie Murphy in them. A lot of, ah, you know, there was a point where a lot of comics started to sound like Jerry Seinfeld. You know, that observational, disconnected, sort of like, "The world is all filled with idiots.", you know. So, and like - and I think that there's - that every great comic put their stamp on language and part of that is timing. And Lord Buckley is, as a great comic performer, is no different than that.

MM
What about the language? The jive, the jazz, the?

WKB
Ah, you know, again, there's always sort of two paths of language in America. There's the king - the Queen's English and then there's what people on the streets are talking. And there's always people on the street talking. Right now, thanks to Hip Hop, we are aware what that language is. We're more easy - we can hear that language more often. It's in music, it's in McDonald's commercials, it's in, you know, it's everywhere. It's in a toothpaste ad. Like that, that language has sort of bled into - has been sort of taken, not bled into, it's been taken and used and co-modified and, you know - Snoop Dog is a cultural icon at this point. But, when Lord Buckley was doing it, the language he was speaking - that I wouldn't say borrowed from but he was speaking in his every day life clearly - that he was speaking with other people who spoke that language - they didn't have the ability to take that and put it in front of the masses. Or in front of, you know, when I say the masses, on television or they wound up at night clubs. Like the jazz musicians weren't - they weren't there to talk they were there to play. And a lot of the black comics of that day, who maybe had some of the patterns of Lord Buckley weren't getting in front of white audiences. So, Lord Buckley was in this position where he could sort of like be this cultural envoy to take this language that was very common amongst an element of American society. But then put it on in front of a white, a mostly white audience. Or an all white audience probably a lot of times. And, ah, and that put him in a very unique place. That I don't know that any performer is really going to be able to do that exact thing again. Because, you know, if slang is invented on Monday by Friday they're saying it on CNN. It's just like it moves so much quicker through thanks to the internet and thanks to popular culture and thanks to how much bigger the media has gotten, mass media, you know. So, I think that he was in the position to sort of be like, you know, "I'm the on -" he could sort of, he could sort of put himself - "I'm the only one who's going to give you this knowledge." Or, "I'm the only one who knows these things."

MM
Yeah.

WKB
And which makes him sort of like, for the all white audience, it's like it makes it exciting, "He's sharing something with us that we can't get from anywhere else in the world. He's the guy who has it." Where like that - that's changed now, you know. You know, it's suburban white soccer moms will use Hip Hop slang.

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MM
Right, yeah, yeah.

WKB
So, I think that he - like, in that sense, he was - that was a moment in time.

MM
We've been talking, for this hour, mostly sort of intellectually about him. The concepts and stuff. Is there anything about him that touches your heart?

WKB
You know, I'm - I'm always struck by performers who are clearly putting their heart on the line. And who are - like he really put himself out there in a way that's really vulnerable. And that, certainly, I'm sure he paid the price for in ways that we don't know. Ah, it was a choice he made. Because he could have - he could have distanced that act from himself. He could have sort of played that character onstage and then off stage sort of cleaned himself up. You know, he could have made those choices. But, he clearly wanted to - he clearly was living the way he wanted to live, you know. He was, "This is not a character, this is me." And I think that, especially that moment in time, like I can't - I can't imagine having to make those choices. Ah, I don't know that I would be strong enough to be sort of like - like your life is on the line in a lot of places, you know - because people were so - America was in such a hard place about race and we're still in a hard place about race but it's not that life and death on a daily basis is or was at that point. Still is for a lot of people but not on a daily - not like it was at that point in the country's history. And so, I can't - you know, I look back on - like Lord Buckley and I can't imagine having to - I can't imagine living that life, you know. I can't imagine all that stuff with him and Monk and the Cabaret thing - having your career taken from you - just, just taken from you - just by - because they say, "We don't want you out there.", you know. I think a lot of performers died because of that. And Lord Buckley may be no different.

MM
Ooohfff! Yeah. Is there anything you were either hoping I would ask you or dreading I would ask you?

WKB
No, no, no, I think, you know, this is certainly a - I was just hoping I would do a good job.

MM
You did a great job.

WKB
Yeah, yeah. It was a lot of fun. Thank you.

MM
Well, thank you very, very much. This, this has been a beautiful hour.

WKB
Thank you. No, it's been great. Thank you very much.

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