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MM
Have you done films?
RS
Lots.
MM
Lots. Like?
RS
Lots of films, lots of television.
MM
Things that I would seen?
RS
Well, I played a transvestite kidnapper on Kojak.
MM
Transvestite what?
RS
Transvestite kidnapper on Kojak.
MM
Oh, that would have been great.
RS
And I've done a lot of small parts in movies and television shows. And big parts on the stage besides mime. Besides -
MM
What else have you done?
RS
Oh, I starred in a lot of plays in Los Angeles: Travesties by Tom Stoppard, Cold Storage by Ron Ribman, I did Counselor At Law by Elmer Rice and -
MM
Were you working at the Mark Taper and the -
RS
I did mime shows at the Mark Taper, five of them. And at the Westwood Playhouse and ones at the Whilshire ???. And the mime troupe did college concerts and we also had a comedy troupe there called the LA Caberet. And we did improvised comedy from 1967 to '77, ten years. And I had a troupe here in New York from '88 to '91 at the Village Gate, the biggest nightclub in NÉ·ew York. And we did two new shows, we never repeated anything every Friday and Saturday night for three years. You see how I moved my head then?
MM
Yes.
RS
You see my teacher in Hollywood, Jess Kimel, he said you have to know two things in Hollywood: how to find your light and how to stay on the horse.
MM
Am I making it hard for you to find your light?
RS
No, no, I found my light.
MM
Did you ever know an old actor named Thayer Roberts?
RS
I know who he was, he was generally the corporate villian and sort of a large man.
MM
I never met him, he was a friend of a friend.
RS
He was a heavy set guy, kind of thick, rubbery lips and an evil look in his eye. The great type for a, you know, corporate villian, corrupt judge.
MM
He [Thayer Roberts] used to tell this story about his mother. His mother came from France and married his father, who was a dirt farmer in Arkansas. And she thought she was marrying some fancy American rich guy. And when they were working in Arkansas on the farm, she was getting, her skin was getting rough. And she noticed one day that, when she was carrying some manure, that it bleached her skin out. So, that night she took a bunch of manure, put it all over her arms and wrapped her arms in gauze, woke up about three in the morning screaming because maggots had crawled out of everything.
RS
Oh, Jesus!
MM
That's the story I remember about Thayer Roberts.
RS
See now, Thayer Roberts used to play characters who would tell stories like that. Unsavorary.
MM
Ah.
RS
Who would pass that story on?
MM
I did.
RS
Yeah, that's ok, we're talking about Ralph Strane.
MM
Well, Ralph told it to me and I'm sure he heard it right from Thayer.
RS
Right from Thayer, who heard it directly from the grandmother's mouth.
MM
Well, let me go on.
RS
You did get a good shot of me doing the bit at the Buckley thing?
MM
I did and you know what, I wish I had brought it with me.
RS
It's alright, send it to me.
MM
Oh, I will. Yeah, half inch, yeah?
RS
Yeah.
MM
Speaking of which, could we talk about Buckley for awhile?
RS
Anything you want to know, if I know it.
MM
OK, maybe you could tell me about the first time you met him?
RS
I had heard about Buckley, but you hear about a lot of people and [phone rings] I'm going to let that ring - unless it's one of my daughters or something from California.
MM
Should we answer it?
RS
No, that [the answering machine] will take care of it. So, I - let's wait [answering machine plays message being recorded - Finally Richmond picks up the phone] We'll do it on Wednesday, I'll call you Wednesday at work. Bye. [he hands up the phone] That's my friend who's an accountant who did my taxes and I don't owe anything so it's ok to send it in late, there's no penalty.
MM
Did they file an extension for you?
RS
Didn't need to because I don't owe anything.
MM
Oh, you don't have to file an extension?
RS
Well, no, not - Ì if you don't owe anything because they can't charge you any interest. You see if you are late and don't file an extension they'll charge you interest on the time you're late, on what you owe. But I don't owe, they owe. They owe me.
MM
They owe [singing to the tune of the Banana Song] They owe me and I've got to collect.
RS
So -
MM
Ok, take two.
RS
So, I had heard about Buckley, that there was this interesting guy.
MM
Let me ask you something. Where were you?
RS
I was in Los Angeles. I had heard about, heard a rumor about him in New York and heard a quote or two from, about The Nazz. Just a line or two. There was one guy that we used to - he was the first guy who turned us all on to peyote cactus in the '50s. And this was a time when we would have it shipped from Laredo, Texas, by railway express, a crate of peyote, a hundred peyote buttons for 18 dollars, from the Tropical Fruit Company in Laredo. And, you know, nobody knew what it was. And this guy, Benny Shapiro was his name, talked about Buckley and would quote from The Nazz. And then, in California, Benny opened a nightclub and then he opened a big place called the Club Renaissance on the Sunset Strip. And I was doing my mime act there, it was called "The Mime And Me" I was Me and the guitarist/narrator was the mime. I wore white make up and the Paul Horne Quartet was playing on the bill with us, singers like Ruth Price. And I was a regular there and my mime studio was underneath the club. John Altoona, a wonderful painter, was, had his studio down there. And I heard that they're booking, that Buckley, this Lord Buckley was going to be there. I didn't know what to make of it. But [I said] "Alright, maybe I'll come." He's doing the 11 o'clock show, Friday and Saturday night. So, I went and he knocked me out. And he was, his use of language, and his concepts were, at that time, and I was clearly in the mood for that, was outrageous. When he had Jonah in Jonah and The Whale roll a joint and smoke it, this was unheard of in those days to do that on the stage. And also, mixed in with his , you know, brilliant use of language. At that time we were all smoking grass and he became, you know, the crown prince of the potheads, as well as the artists and the outlaws and whatever. At that time, what were we? I don't know what we were, we weren't even, this is pre Beatniks. So, maybe, around Beatnik time, but the Bohemians - so we all started listening every night.
MM
You would go there every night?
RS
Well, I was in the club anyway.
MM
Oh, that's right.
RS
I was working there, but a lot of us would come in and listen to Buckley every night. And he was in this great setting with these huge abstract paintings around and he would hold forth. So we also became friends with him, or friendly with him and hung out with him a bit. And one day I'm in the alley, in the afternoon, of the club, behind the club, and Buckley is smoking a joint back there. And he says [imitating Buckley] "Let me recite something for you, Prince." He said, "I just received it in the the mail. And I want you tell me if I should put it in my wig." And I said, "Sure, good ahead, what is it?" And he recited Edgar Allen Poe's The Raven and he said [imitating Buckley] "What do you think, Prince, yes? I said, "Sure, it's terrific, do it!" He said, "Ok, I will." Now the one piece that he used to do then that, so far, I think Oliver [Oliver Trager] may have a copy of it, that he did every night, he would vary what he did every night but this was like his new important piece for him, he did the Pied Piper of Hamlin. And I have never heard it since. This was 1958. I am hoping he has a copy because World Pacific Jazz did not record that. They were recording him at that time, they were recording all his shows at that time.
MM
Well, I have heard it.
RS
You have heard the Pied Piper?
MM
So, I know it exists somewhere.
RS
Because when we were putting together the show Lord Buckley's Finest Hour, John Sinclair and I searched everywhere. And I've got, I think, tapes of everything Buckley's done, except The Pied Piper of Hamlin. And that I have a strong memory of because he did it every night. Now, he would vary the show a little every night. I mean he would vary the words. I probably have two or three recorded versions of different pieces and there would be slight differences from night to night. He would take off a little and run with it a little bit and he would occasionaly do the chairs bit [the Amos and Andy style routine from his vaudeville days], with the four people in the chairs and he would put funny hats on them and they would open and close their mouths when he squeezed the back of their neck. Even that this time, when he was primarily doing his hip material, he would do the four chairs and the people in them. [imitating Buckley] "Spontaneous Pantomimickery!" He called it.
MM
Now what, you were an actor at this point, or a mime.
RS
Yeah, I was mostly a mime, but also an actor.
MM
Ok, can you, I mean, could you sort of filter it through your actor's sensibilities, what was it about him that - everybody's talked about how he had this incredible presence. Now is that just something that person has or doesn't have or is there something -
RS
You can't buy it. You cannot learn it, you cannot - it cannot be taught, it cannot be learned. There are actors with presence, Richard Burton had presence. I saw him on the stage in a huge theatre and he filled - Carol Channing has unbeiveable presence, she just did, again at the age of 74, Hello, Dolly! and it's, I mean, it's amazing what this women brings to a live performance. Lenny Bruce had it. Lenny was very laid back he talked very softly and yet his presence filled the room as much as Buckley's did. And [imitating Buckley's voice] Buckley came on with chest up and his moustache waxed and booming voice and his vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp into the microphone and his vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp communicated. [returns to his own voice] But, yes he had great presence but he carried, just as he said he carried the Royal Court everywhere he went, he carried that presence everywhere he went.
MM
Now, was, I mean was any of it sort of actor's trickery.
RS
It was long time - it was many, many years of assuming a personality, of playing a character, this is an American. This is a man from Washington, who worked in the, you know, as a lumberjack at one time. And gradually [imitates Buckley's voice] began to feel that he was Lord Buckley. [returns to his normal voice] And he kept that going all the time which is, of course, what destroyed his children. Because they were eight and ten when he did and they thought they were a prince and princess and now it's, you know, how many, thirty-six years later? They don't understand -
MM
That explains alot doesn't it?
RS
And his poor son is a complete paranoid, delusioned, ineffective alcoholic man. I feel very sorry for him. But Buckley carried that with him all the time. I mean there are some famous lines supposedly he was going to see an agent one time. And he wanted to make a good impression and refering to his children he said [imitating Buckley's voice] "Elizabeth dress the props!" Now, of course we put that line in the show [Lord Buckley's Finest Hour]
MM
Right, yeah.
RS
In our show.
MM
My friend, Doug Cruickshank, have you read his article? He wrote one called "All Hail, Lord Buckley!"
RS
I think I have it. I think Oliver gave me a copy of it.
MM
He [Doug Cruickshank] quotes someone as saying that, maybe it was liner notes or something, I'm getting mixed up - but as one point they were in this rickety, rickety house that they had in Hollywood, which had an outside stairway. And it was at night and was, it was the only way to get from the top of the house to the bottom of the house and it was very rickety and dangerous and he was with somebody and they had the children with them -
RS
And he said -
MM
"Hurry, hurry, hurry!"
RS
[and the person with Buckley said] "Isn't that dangerous for the kids?" and he [Buckley] said, "They are heavily insured!"
MM
Even if they are apocraphal they do have his spirit.
RS
Yeah, and he did, he would do everything on credit. He didn't have any money. He would order groceries on credit. He would call people and say [imitating Buckley's voice] "We are having a party, you're invited, bring the meat." and call someone else and "We're having a party bring the fruit salad."
MM
Can you - you also met him in New York.
RS
Yeah, I knew him later in New York in 1960, shortly before he died. I don't remember - one other thing I don't remember whether it was California or New, but there was one afternoon we were hanging out with him and he insisted on giving us standing lessons. Terry McGuire was there and several other people. Terry McGuire was Prince Cougarhead. And [imitates Buckley's voice] We had to button our jackets and hold our chests up and he had us marching around the living room, he says "A man stands with his chest up! Now walk!" [returns to his normal voice] And we walked and marched and everything. I mean we were playing, you know - it was easy to fall into his game, into his Royal Court game and allow them to be His Majesty.
MM
Now, do you think actually believed it? Was he to that point?
RS
Ah, it's not an easy question to answer. Remember he had been doing this for, you know, who knows, 20 or 30 years. I don't know if you ever saw the tape of him, on Grocho's You Bet Your Life. Well, I saw it, I actually saw it on television one night. They were doing reruns of Grocho on You Bet Your Life and who's one of the contestants? Lord Buckley, Richard Buckley. And he stood up straight and he had the same moustache but he talked something like this [talks vaguley like Lord Buckley] and he actually answered questions and - [returns to normal voice] I mean, it was obvious he had some presence but - some of the, you know, the ordinary horseshit regamoro that he carried with him had fallen aside a little bit, he was being - this was gig, he was being paid - He was in a movie called "We're Not Married" a tiny thing with Marilyn Monroe in it. He wanted to work. Sure, I mean, remember he did the chairs bit 9 times on Ed Sullivan, while always asking Sullivan if he could one of his, you know, The Hip Gan or something. He knew they wouldn't let him do Jonah or The Nazz but maybe The Hip Gan, maybe Cabaza De Vega, you know, The Gasser - they wouldn't. Or even
MM
Why wouldn't they?
RS
Because Ed Sullivan - I don't think Ed Sullivan could comprehend the beauty of the language. He understood circus acts, he understood a talking mouse, he understood the chairs bit with people, you know, being turned into dummies - but the sophisticated use of language of, you know, "Knock me your lobes. I come to lay Ceasar out not to hip you to him." [imitates Ed Sullivan] "What's he talking about? Buckley, forget it!"
MM
Well, do you think that Ed Sullivan represented sort of the conscience level that America was at at that time?
RS
Probably on a broad low level, he was very successful with middle america. He wasn't going to do anything that would shake 'em up at all. So, he didn't and he was quite successful that way.
MM
If you could speculate about - if he'd [Sullivan] let Buckley do The Gasser or Marc Antony, what do you think would have happened?
RS
Nothing.
MM
Would it have flopped?
RS
I don't think his audience would have know what he was doing but they would have been intrigued by his energy. That kind of energy, that people - it's fascinating. So, conceivably he would have sold some more records and maybe a jazz club would have booked him earlier. But I was around in New York when he - I assume you know what happened. He was working at The Jazz Gallery, he was making 600 dollars a week at that time, which is like 10,000 now in 1996. He was making big money, they were packing them in. And he had finally reached his audience, the jazz audience, who understood what he was talking about and appreciated it and cheered him. It was the highpoint of his life. And they busted him, they took away his caberet card because 18 years previously, in Texas, he had been busted for one, thin, New York style, marijuana cigarette. And had not been convicted. But this was 18 years later and at that time if you were ever arrested for a narcotic offense, you could not have a caberet card to work in New York City. And they pulled his caberet card and it was devastating to him. And as I mentioned Friday [during his performance at the Buckley Bash], I was at a party with Buckley two weeks before he died at the house of Jane Ross. And Dave Verne, Dave Verne was a brilliant comedy writer, walked over to Buckley and said, "Dick, the only thing that keeps you from being a legend is you're alive." And two weeks later Buckley had a stroke and split. And, as you probably know, the caberet card thing was fought for Buckley by a lawyer named Maxwell T. Cohen. And two months after Buckley died his caberet card arrived in the mail, as we said, post humourously.
MM
And you went to the funeral?
RS
Yes, we were all at the funeral.
MM
At the funeral home, at the funeral as well?
RS
Yeah, we were all there and then there was a party afterwards and -
MM
Could you describe some of that, like the funeral, I mean how he looked.
RS
He was wearing his, you know, white tie and tails, and -
MM
In the coffin, you mean.
RS
In the coffin, the coffin was open from the waist up as far as I could see. I don't think it was open there. But it was propped up a little bit and he was just lying there, looked like Lord Buckley asleep and - you know he was only 54 years old but he died of old age. He was a dissapator, a hard liver, and so he had a stroke, you know, something gave [in] but he could also of had a hard attack, he could have apoplexy, [imitates Buckley's voice] he was pumped up a lot of the time! [returns to his normal voice] And he would drink and smoke and, you know, I never sniffed coke with him but I know that he did everything in sight. And I'm sure it weakened his blood vessels and one of them popped. The - but, I'll tell you the interesting thing about doing the show, Lord Buckley's Finest Hour, the play I wrote with John Sinclair. We did it in 1983, we did it over the next couple of years, but we started in 1983. And as a result there were big articles about Buckley in the Los Angeles Times and everything. When he [Buckley] did Jonah and he did The Nazz in - before 1960 when he died, he was outrageous! How could anybody - he's calling Jesus Christ The Nazz because he's from Nazereth. Once Jesus Christ Superstar came in and universally appreciated and understood and Godspell and once the hippie movement came and in and everybody's smoking grass, Buckley was no longer outrageous. Up to the time - The Beatles came what, 1963? And that broke it open, The Living Theatre around that time, '63 '64, up to that time, no profanity was allowed to be said on the stage. I watched Lenny Bruce do his act, his profanity. The cops laughed all the way through it and at the end of his show, they busted him every night. There was a Supreme Court decision, I was working at The Living Theatre at the time, we were doing a play called The Connection , this is the very early '60s around '61. '61 we were doing it and they got busted because they used the word shit on the stage refering to heroin. And the Supreme Court decision was: "They are not refering to feces, it's a vernacular for dope, therefore they are permitted to use the word on the stage." That's the first time it was permitted, but it was the breakthrough. The next thing you know, every four letter word in the book is being used so, in other words, the shock value of a Lenny Bruce became part of the main stream of comedy. Not that Lenny wasn't more brilliant than most of them. Buckley became quaint, it doesn't mean his language is not brilliant, his concepts unbelievable, but the shock value, the outrageousness of standing on the stage and having Jonah [imitates the sound of sucking on a joint] roll a joint. And having Jesus called The Nazz, even though it was irreverent irreverence. I mean it was absolutely reverent his irreverence, in calling Mahatma Gandhi The Hip Gan, I felt, in the '80s, it had become quaint and-
MM
Did you sense that in your audiences [for Lord Buckley's Finest Hour] as well -
RS
The audiences, most, - anybody who had every heard of Buckley and their friends, came to see the show. The show did very well, but they sort of knew what they were coming for. Anybody who's turned on by semantics was always, was turned on by him [Buckley] anyway. But what I'm saying is that the outrageousness of actually talking about marijuana, actually calling Jesus The Nazz, that shock value, that outrageousness was gone, is gone.
MM
But stuff remains.
RS
Oh, his concepts, his language concepts are brilliant, yeah, absolutely and that's the tragedy of the thing was when he finally found his audience in 1960. They took his Caberet Card away and he was depressed and he died.
MM
Now, do you have any sense, I mean, he seemed like such a, I don't want to say "Bull in a china shop" because he seemed very adroit at manuevering through life.
RS
He had a certain grace about manuvering through life.
MM
Yeah, I mean he definately was like a train going pretty full tilt. Why do you think it was that particular incident, I mean there must have been other incidents where life didn't hand him the right card -
RS
He never before had reached the place, the very place, that he had been working towards and aspiring towards all his life.
MM
This was a broken dream.
RS
This was, he got it, he got the Holy Graille and somebody smashed it just as he's about to drink. And, who knows, we don't know what's going on in people's blood vessels, whether the anger or the depression or the rage hurried his stroke or not we can't say for sure, but it very well may have hastened it. He may have had a stroke,you know, two weeks later anyway, we don't, you know, he did abuse his body. And there was a duality in his spiritual pronoucements which surpised me. Because he's doing a piece called "The Gasser" where a man is somehow able to receive a healing power and do something in a way by the grace of God. And he, I think he felt the essence of The Nazz and yet he's got this little piece called "I'm a People Worshiper" [imitates Buckley's voice] "people should be able to worship something they can get their hands on, I tried talking to God the other day, but I couldn't pin him. So I think we should worship people" [returns to his normal voice] Now, I think that diametrically opposed to the spiritual message in a way. He doesn't say, "Worship the essence of Our Maker in people." He doesn't say, "Worship our spiritual essence." What he's really saying was that there are great people on earth, and since there is no God let's worship these great people: and people who are wonderful people, who are good to other people who help other people. But he was, in a way, denying that high spiritual essence that I, myself, feel strongly about now that I was able to contact it. But at that time [I] felt the same way he did. At that time it had not revealed itself to me. At that time we were all taking acid and smoking grass and looking for other doors of perception, as Huxely put it in his book. And eating peyote cactus and searching for other experiences and other worlds and perhaps searching for contact with the divine. I think we were all there but it had not been revealed to us yet.
MM
I think another dicotomy, maybe it's a third leg of this little tripod, is the utter, what I see as the utter juxstaposition, or dialectic almost, of The Nazz versus The Bad Rapping of the Marquis de Sade.
RS
His product is outrageousness, yeah.
MM
I talked with one fellow, I don't think you'd know him. But he was made a prince late in the game, March or April of '60. He met Buckley at Stanford, or at Palo Alto at the Outside at the Inside. He said that, he felt that Buckley was just messing around with the Marquis de Sade.
RS
Oh, yeah, it was a joke.
MM
You don't feel that that was -
RS
No, no, that was, he'd say anything - it was a joke. Remember that this is a man who when booked by Frank Sinatra into The Royal Hilton Hotel in Hawaii, got a band of followers over there and walked through the lobby of the Hilton Hotel naked with them following him. He'd do anything, he'd say anything.
MM
Do you think he would shot himself in the foot?
RS
Absolutely.
MM
On purpose?
RS
No, that's part of him: testing the limits. He was definately a limits tester.
MM
So you don't think it was some deep pyschological flaw where he would get close and blow it?
RS
That could be. I've known many comedians who have that syndrome. I've been close friends who shot themselves in the foot just as they are about to step onto the stage of the bigtime. I don't think that's what happened at the end of Buckley's life. I don't think - that's what must have shaken him so much: that he didn't shot himself in the foot, he did everything right, he got his audience, he's doing his material, they're loving it. And something he had set up in the past, 18 years earlier, came back. And who could conceive of that?
MM
Would you say that there was, I guess this is a two part question. First part would be: Is there such a thing as a profile of a comedian?
RS
I recommend two films: The Comic by Dick Van Dyck and Mr. Saturday, Billy Crystal. And The Comic was sort of about a Buster Keaton character who is a son-of-a-bitch but funny. And Mr. Saturday Night had the essence of many comedians that I know. Rent them, take a look at them. And if you - I have to also mention that if you are renting films, the King of Comedy, Robert Deniros picture. He's brilliant in that. But many of them [comedians] are self destructive. Many of them will shot themselves in the foot. Many of them will get stuck in a tangent. I think the funniest comedian in America today is George Hopkins. You never heard of George Hopkins. He lives and works in Florida, like Mr. Saturday Night. He works in the condominiums and the ships, summertime he comes up and works in the mountains [the Catskills]. He never was on television. A couple little appearances years ago. But he makes a lot of money in Florida and he calls it "green death." He makes money and it leads nowhere. He's got a nice condominium, his wife is a songwriter. It's - then he shot himself in the foot many times. George said "fuck you" to Ed Sullivan. He won the Arthur Godfrey Talent Scouts forty years ago, he said "fuck you" to Arthur Godfrey. He would get the best gig in the world and show up drunk. That has changed in the last twenty years since he's been with his wife, yeah. And he doesn't do that anymore but by that time his reputation preceded him anywhere he went. And he ended up working in Florida making a very good living.
MM
How about - where was Buckley, I mean did Buckley fit the profile of a comic? Was he -
RS
Oh, yeah. He was up all night, he was drinking, he was carousing, he was taking, you know, whatever drugs were around, and he was, you know, stuppen [having sex with] the chorus girls and leading that narcissistic, destructive life. Absolutely. I knew his wife before Lady Elizabeth, Joanne Dorm. She was crazy. I mean she was bananas. She was another paranoid maniac. And, of course, the subsequent conflagration between the two of them that they broke up. But she was, I mean, certifiably insane [he laughs] and he was with her for a number of years. And, you know, you can't - if you are with somebody crazy, you either have to be crazy or be crazy enough to ignore them, you know.
MM
Did you ever see him when he wasn't Lord Buckley?
RS
I saw him, I've had conversations with him when he was a little less of Lord Buckley. But it never left entirely.
MM
What were the circumstances?
RS
Just hanging out talking. Yeah, he'd come off the mid-Atlantic tone a little bit and - it was a mid-Atlantic tone that he had and he saved the black jazz riff for the pieces, for the numbers.
MM
Do you remember him heavy - there being flax about his black dialect
RS
No. No. The audiences were he worked - I don't remember any flax, until he coined his phrase. The only thing "American Beauty" we ever heard of was the American Beauty Rose, which was a very popular, very beautiful red flower, called The American Beauty Rose. And when he introduced his dialect by saying "I fell in love -", you know, "The dialect of the American Beauty Negro" that also at that time was shocking to some and very gratifying to everyone else. This was a time before there were any blacks on television, I mean, none! The whole situation has changed a lot since the mid-'60s. So, anybody who would have objected when they hear "American Beauty Negro" and his admiration of this dialect and these people and, you know, words with such beauty, [they'd say] "Go ahead, Buckley, swing, let's hear some more!"
MM
And he was fairly physical I guess.
RS
He was robust, yes. Stood straight. He was about six feet tall and strong, robust.
MM
How about in his act?
RS
He didn't move around a whole lot. He stayed in one place but his energy was there, he would move from here to here, this side of the mic, this side of the mic, sometimes without a microphone. But he like to have a mic to do: vrrrrrrrrrrpppppppp!!!
MM
Now, can you tell me - I mean that's a mystery - can you tell me how that's done?
RS
I don't know. Vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrpppp! But when you do that vrrrrrrrrrrrrrppppp into a micrphone, you heard me do it the other night [at the Buckley 90th Birthday Bash].
MM
It was very effective.
RS
And we would go Wala! into the microphone, and he would emphasis phrases. His mic technique was great.
MM
It was another instrument.
RS
And vrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooMM
MM
You heard him sing?
RS
Oh, he sang all the time, you know, he would sing When The Saints Go Marching In. And he always did, you know, [imitates Buckley's voice] "And The Nazz said, [hums Rock of Ages], Stay cool, baby." [returns to his normal voice] But he also sang like Louis Armstrong, at the end of The Nazz. He would go into a, you know, a riff based on Louis Armstrong.
MM
You're feeling again, as an actor, and a student of the body really, was he, did he do this by instinct? Was he an instinctual performer, because he wasn't schooled in theatre arts -
RS
Remember, he started performing with a monkey in his act at the Walkathons, Danceathons in Chicago, I guess it was in the '20s. And when you start doing a nightclub act, the schooling takes place through experience. He served an apprenticeship as an MC, as a comedian. I don't know what other routines he had besides the chairs. Oh, yes I do, he also sometime, during this time, developed a routine - Paul Newman's grandfather, Newman -
MM
Joseph.
RS
Joseph Newman had a piece pre-Buckley about, Leviathan it was called, about a whale, about Moby Dick. There were poems like The Face On The Barroom Floor and The Killing of Dan McGroo. And I believe Buckley did some of that kind of material, those recitations. And then, of course, he developed his piece called God's Own Drunk, which is a great piece. [It's] about a guy finding a still in the woods, and meeting a bear and then getting drunk together. And this was all pre-hippie stuff, pre, you know, hipsemantic stuff. And that was part of his act, and he would occasionally - I saw him do God's Own Drunk many times. It was from his old act and he liked to do it and it got a great response. So, in other words he was doing, for years, an ordinary comic act with the great innovation of the chairs.
MM
And you feel that he just slowly honed it, slowly was polishing a huge lens for -
RS
I would say he probably tried a little segment of Jonah or The Nazz. The Nazz was originally called Three Miracles [that] was the name of the piece, as Buckley wrote it and did it. The three miracles was the guy with the bent frame, the loaves and the fishes was the last one and I guess the third one was stomping across the water. But he called it the piece about the three miracles later. Meanwhile he was talking about this guy from Nazareth and then he changed the name to The Nazz.
MM
I talked with Prince Vaughn, he said that he was sitting at a table at this nightclub with Buckley, between sets. And Buckley talked about - he was working on The Nazz Part II.
RS
Could be.
MM
Yeah, what he [Prince Vaughn] said was, "The only line I remember is that some of the disciples were disputing about who dug The Nazz the most. And The Nazz says, 'Well, what are you babies going on about?' 'Well, Nazz, were trying to figure out who digs you the most." And The Nazz says, 'Well, I don't know which of you'", This is at the Last Supper.
RS
Yeah.
MM
"I don't know which of you cats digs me the most but I know at this table is a finger-poppin' fink that's going to sell me out before sunrise."
RS
Now, I've heard that before somewhere, I don't remember where I heard that -
MM
Well, in fact I told Oliver [Trager] about it, and Oliver'd heard, where he heard it - maybe he heard it from Vaughn too.
RS
But, for Buckley to say, "I'm going to do The Nazz Part II" and to do The Nazz Part II is two different stories. What it means is that he came up with one good line and said, "Maybe I could do a sequel."
MM
This brings up a point I'd like to ask you about: What routines, what material that he didn't create, what would you, like if you got to suggest material for him to develop what would you love to see him attempt?
RS
I don't know. Well, Mother Goose poems would have been interesting done Buckley style. I was just thinking, "What about Shakespeare?" Now, he did, of course, start, I don't know how far he went in Hamlet's soliloquy. All I remember him saying was, [imitates buckley's voice] "To swing or not to swing, that is the hanger." [returns to normal voice] But that's all I remember of the opening of that. Now I don't know if that's - I forgot all about that. I don't know if the whole solioquy is recorded or not ever.
MM
It has, actually I've heard -
RS
The whole thing?
MM
Yeah, I don't know if it follows -
RS
That's another one. And I sure like the Gettysburg Address. He used to do that occasionally, that was brilliant. So whatever - I think any familiar document or speech - I think the important thing is that the story be familiar. His thing of Nero was - he did it right after he saw the movie Quo Vadis, which was a big Hollywood spectactular movie about the Romans. He sees Quo Vadis. He went right out and wrote the Nero piece, entirely based on the movie, without the reference [imitates Buckley's voice] [to] "Knock a gold spike where that chick blew!" [returns to his normal voice] Without, you know, you lose some of the reference. What I'm saying is any familiar material he could have done. This guy Horowitz [performer Mikhail Horowitz] who did The Killing of Dan's Guru - that's absolutely Buckleyesque approach. I thought he was terrific. I loved what he did.
MM
Yeah, it had that spirit didn't it?
RS
Absolutely had the spirit and the use of language, I mean the guy is a bright guy and literary I guess. And he delivered it well.
MM
Do you think, if Buckley had lived say another ten years, would have found the success that, to say it like God's Own Drunk, evaded him? Would he have become the darling of the hippies?
RS
Of the hippies? Perhaps, yeah, probably. But I don't know whether he would have found the vast audience. I don't know if - who knows? I mean comedians like George Carlin have - we used to work together in the village, in the clubs and he worked and he developed and he became - in a way he was influenced by Lord Buckley and by Lenny Bruce and - many people were influenced by both of them. I'll tell you though, when I worked - I was at the Village Gate for three years, from '88 to '91 - our show was completely improvised: two 50 minute shows every Friday and every Saturday and we never repeated anything. And on the bill with us each weekend would be three comedians, an emcee and two others. And I would say one of them out of 40 we worked with, 50, maybe one was influenced by Buckley, maybe. In that they[the comedian] explored language, and took us somewhere with the mind. Some of them explored - some of them took off from Lenny Bruce in use of views of society including use of profanity. Buckley was never profane. He never cursed on the stage.
MM
Why?
RS
Because it's not necessary. I mean, even now when we were on the bill with all these comedians, who were saying "fuck" every other word, I told my troupe, "Don't use language, it's not necessary for humor." I said, you know, "Once every six months if it's absolutely necessary slip one "fuck" in. Then it has shock value." But we kept it without the profanity as much as possible.
MM
Well, I can imagine that Buckley used expletives quite liberally off the stage.
RS
I dont' remember.
MM
No?
RS
I don't remember him doing that. He always kept a certain dignity. Of course, there is always a difference if there are two or more people around, or if you are one to one with him. Anytime, with a comedian, if there's two or more people they are always at least a little bit on. [MM
MM
It's just you and I in this room, so -
RS
Now, the last thing I'd like to say is the thing I mentioned [at the Buckley 90th Birthday Bash] - I think it's the first time I mentioned it, although I did write about it once. Sometime between five and 10 years after Buckley died, my life was in the bottom of a trough, in terms of what was happening financially, and I had children at that time, and we had no money and no work, and everything was devastated. And I felt Buckley come to me in a dream one night and he said, [imitating Buckley's voice] "Have courage, great warrior!" [returns to his normal voice] And I've, since then, always hooked onto that a little bit. Now, whatever - it felt like a spiritual essence touched me and Buckley was important in my life so it, you know, maybe came through the filter of my imagination or what I saw in my subconcious as somebody who would say something like that. But the message was clear and it was a Buckleyesque message, [imitates Buckley's voice] "Have courage, great warrior!" [returns to his normal voice] and it's sort of been my motto and it's been a long time now since then, this is - he died thirty-six years ago - so, I have a very warm place in my heart for His Majesty. [Richmond laughs]
MM
Well, Richmond, thank you very much for speaking with me.
RS
It's a pleasure.
MM
Now, I'm going to pull back [the video camera] so everyone can see your painting.
RS
Oh, would you like to see one of my paintings? It's over my head.
MM
There you go. Maybe we'll just zoom right into it and fade out
MM
Have you done films?
RS
Lots.
MM
Lots. Like?
RS
Lots of films, lots of television.
MM
Things that I would seen?
RS
Well, I played a transvestite kidnapper on Kojak.
MM
Transvestite what?
RS
Transvestite kidnapper on Kojak.
MM
Oh, that would have been great.
RS
And I've done a lot of small parts in movies and television shows. And big parts on the stage besides mime. Besides -
MM
What else have you done?
RS
OH, I starred in a lot of plays in Los Angeles: Travesties by Tom Stoppard, Cold Storage by Ron Ribman, I did Counselor At Law by Elmer Rice and -
MM
Were you working at the Mark Taper and the -
RS
I did mime shows at the Mark Taper, five of them. And at the Westwood Playhouse and ones at the Whilshire ???. And the mime troupe did college concerts and we also had a comedy troupe there called the LA Caberet. And we did improvised comedy from 1967 to '77, ten years. And I had a troupe here in New York from '88 to '91 at the Village Gate, the biggest nightclub in NÉ·ew York. And we did two new shows, we never repeated anything every Friday and Saturday night for three years. You see how I moved my head then?
MM
Yes.
RS
You see my teacher in Hollywood, Jess Kimel, he said you have to know two things in Hollywood: how to find your light and how to stay on the horse.
MM
Am I making it hard for you to find your light?
RS
No, no, I found my light.
MM
Did you ever know an old actor named Thayer Roberts?
RS
I know who he was, he was generally the corporate villian and sort of a large man.
MM
I never met him, he was a friend of a friend.
RS
He was a heavy set guy, kind of thick, rubbery lips and an evil look in his eye. The great type for a, you know, corporate villian, corrupt judge.
MM
He [Thayer Roberts] used to tell this story about his mother. His mother came from France and married his father, who was a dirt farmer in Arkansas. And she thought she was marrying some fancy American rich guy. And when they were working in Arkansas on the farm, she was getting, her skin was getting rough. And she noticed one day that, when she was carrying some manure, that it bleached her skin out. So, that night she took a bunch of manure, put it all over her arms and wrapped her arms in gauze, woke up about three in the morning screaming because maggots had crawled out of everything.
RS
Oh, Jesus!
MM
That's the story I remember about Thayer Roberts.
RS
See now, Thayer Roberts used to play characters who would tell stories like that. Unsavorary.
MM
Ah.
RS
Who would pass that story on?
MM
I did.
RS
Yeah, that's ok, we're talking about Ralph Strane.
MM
Well, Ralph told it to me and I'm sure he heard it right from Thayer.
RS
Right from Thayer, who heard it directly from the grandmother's mouth.
MM
Well, let me go on.
RS
You did get a good shot of me doing the bit at the Buckley thing?
MM
I did and you know what, I wish I had brought it with me.
RS
It's alright, send it to me.
MM
Oh, I will. Yeah, half inch, yeah?
RS
Yeah.
MM
Speaking of which, could we talk about Buckley for awhile?
RS
Anything you want to know, if I know it.
MM
OK, maybe you could tell me about the first time you met him?
RS
I had heard about Buckley, but you hear about a lot of people and [phone rings] I'm going to let that ring - unless it's one of my daughters or something from California.
MM
Should we answer it?
RS
No, that [the answering machine] will take care of it. So, I - let's wait [answering machine plays message being recorded - Finally Richmond picks up the phone] We'll do it on Wednesday, I'll call you Wednesday at work. Bye. [he hands up the phone] That's my friend who's an accountant who did my taxes and I don't owe anything so it's ok to send it in late, there's no penalty.
MM
Did they file an extension for you?
RS
Didn't need to because I don't owe anything.
MM
Oh, you don't have to file an extension?
RS
Well, no, not - Ì if you don't owe anything because they can't charge you any interest. You see if you are late and don't file an extension they'll charge you interest on the time you're late, on what you owe. But I don't owe, they owe. They owe me.
MM
They owe [singing to the tune of the Banana Song] They owe me and I've got to collect.
RS
So -
MM
Ok, take two.
RS
So, I had heard about Buckley, that there was this interesting guy.
MM
Let me ask you something. Where were you?
RS
I was in Los Angeles. I had heard about, heard a rumor about him in New York and heard a quote or two from, about The Nazz. Just a line or two. There was one guy that we used to - he was the first guy who turned us all on to peyote cactus in the '50s. And this was a time when we would have it shipped from Laredo, Texas, by railway express, a crate of peyote, a hundred peyote buttons for 18 dollars, from the Tropical Fruit Company in Laredo. And, you know, nobody knew what it was. And this guy, Benny Shapiro was his name, talked about Buckley and would quote from The Nazz. And then, in California, Benny opened a nightclub and then he opened a big place called the Club Renaissance on the Sunset Strip. And I was doing my mime act there, it was called "The Mime And Me" I was Me and the guitarist/narrator was the mime. I wore white make up and the Paul Horne Quartet was playing on the bill with us, singers like Ruth Price. And I was a regular there and my mime studio was underneath the club. John Altoona, a wonderful painter, was, had his studio down there. And I heard that they're booking, that Buckley, this Lord Buckley was going to be there. I didn't know what to make of it. But [I said] "Alright, maybe I'll come." He's doing the 11 o'clock show, Friday and Saturday night. So, I went and he knocked me out. And he was, his use of language, and his concepts were, at that time, and I was clearly in the mood for that, was outrageous. When he had Jonah in Jonah and The Whale roll a joint and smoke it, this was unheard of in those days to do that on the stage. And also, mixed in with his , you know, brilliant use of language. At that time we were all smoking grass and he became, you know, the crown prince of the potheads, as well as the artists and the outlaws and whatever. At that time, what were we? I don't know what we were, we weren't even, this is pre Beatniks. So, maybe, around Beatnik time, but the Bohemians - so we all started listening every night.
MM
You would go there every night?
RS
Well, I was in the club anyway.
MM
Oh, that's right.
RS
I was working there, but a lot of us would come in and listen to Buckley every night. And he was in this great setting with these huge abstract paintings around and he would hold forth. So we also became friends with him, or friendly with him and hung out with him a bit. And one day I'm in the alley, in the afternoon, of the club, behind the club, and Buckley is smoking a joint back there. And he says [imitating Buckley] "Let me recite something for you, Prince." He said, "I just received it in the the mail. And I want you tell me if I should put it in my wig." And I said, "Sure, good ahead, what is it?" And he recited Edgar Allen Poe's The Raven and he said [imitating Buckley] "What do you think, Prince, yes? I said, "Sure, it's terrific, do it!" He said, "Ok, I will." Now the one piece that he used to do then that, so far, I think Oliver [Oliver Trager] may have a copy of it, that he did every night, he would vary what he did every night but this was like his new important piece for him, he did the Pied Piper of Hamlin. And I have never heard it since. This was 1958. I am hoping he has a copy because World Pacific Jazz did not record that. They were recording him at that time, they were recording all his shows at that time.
MM
Well, I have heard it.
RS
You have heard the Pied Piper?
MM
So, I know it exists somewhere.
RS
Because when we were putting together the show Lord Buckley's Finest Hour, John Sinclair and I searched everywhere. And I've got, I think, tapes of everything Buckley's done, except The Pied Piper of Hamlin. And that I have a strong memory of because he did it every night. Now, he would vary the show a little every night. I mean he would vary the words. I probably have two or three recorded versions of different pieces and there would be slight differences from night to night. He would take off a little and run with it a little bit and he would occasionaly do the chairs bit [the Amos and Andy style routine from his vaudeville days], with the four people in the chairs and he would put funny hats on them and they would open and close their mouths when he squeezed the back of their neck. Even that this time, when he was primarily doing his hip material, he would do the four chairs and the people in them. [imitating Buckley] "Spontaneous Pantomimickery!" He called it.
MM
Now what, you were an actor at this point, or a mime.
RS
Yeah, I was mostly a mime, but also an actor.
MM
Ok, can you, I mean, could you sort of filter it through your actor's sensibilities, what was it about him that - everybody's talked about how he had this incredible presence. Now is that just something that person has or doesn't have or is there something -
RS
You can't buy it. You cannot learn it, you cannot - it cannot be taught, it cannot be learned. There are actors with presence, Richard Burton had presence. I saw him on the stage in a huge theatre and he filled - Carol Channing has unbeiveable presence, she just did, again at the age of 74, Hello, Dolly! and it's, I mean, it's amazing what this women brings to a live performance. Lenny Bruce had it. Lenny was very laid back he talked very softly and yet his presence filled the room as much as Buckley's did. And [imitating Buckley's voice] Buckley came on with chest up and his moustache waxed and booming voice and his vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp into the microphone and his vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp communicated. [returns to his own voice] But, yes he had great presence but he carried, just as he said he carried the Royal Court everywhere he went, he carried that presence everywhere he went.
MM
Now, was, I mean was any of it sort of actor's trickery.
RS
It was long time - it was many, many years of assuming a personality, of playing a character, this is an American. This is a man from Washington, who worked in the, you know, as a lumberjack at one time. And gradually [imitates Buckley's voice] began to feel that he was Lord Buckley. [returns to his normal voice] And he kept that going all the time which is, of course, what destroyed his children. Because they were eight and ten when he did and they thought they were a prince and princess and now it's, you know, how many, thirty-six years later? They don't understand -
MM
That explains alot doesn't it?
RS
And his poor son is a complete paranoid, delusioned, ineffective alcoholic man. I feel very sorry for him. But Buckley carried that with him all the time. I mean there are some famous lines supposedly he was going to see an agent one time. And he wanted to make a good impression and refering to his children he said [imitating Buckley's voice] "Elizabeth dress the props!" Now, of course we put that line in the show [Lord Buckley's Finest Hour]
MM
Right, yeah.
RS
In our show.
MM
My friend, Doug Cruickshank, have you read his article? He wrote one called "All Hail, Lord Buckley!"
RS
I think I have it. I think Oliver gave me a copy of it.
MM
He [Doug Cruickshank] quotes someone as saying that, maybe it was liner notes or something, I'm getting mixed up - but as one point they were in this rickety, rickety house that they had in Hollywood, which had an outside stairway. And it was at night and was, it was the only way to get from the top of the house to the bottom of the house and it was very rickety and dangerous and he was with somebody and they had the children with them -
RS
And he said -
MM
"Hurry, hurry, hurry!"
RS
[and the person with Buckley said] "Isn't that dangerous for the kids?" and he [Buckley] said, "They are heavily insured!"
MM
Even if they are apocraphal they do have his spirit.
RS
Yeah, and he did, he would do everything on credit. He didn't have any money. He would order groceries on credit. He would call people and say [imitating Buckley's voice] "We are having a party, you're invited, bring the meat." and call someone else and "We're having a party bring the fruit salad."
MM
Can you - you also met him in New York.
RS
Yeah, I knew him later in New York in 1960, shortly before he died. I don't remember - one other thing I don't remember whether it was California or New, but there was one afternoon we were hanging out with him and he insisted on giving us standing lessons. Terry McGuire was there and several other people. Terry McGuire was Prince Cougarhead. And [imitates Buckley's voice] We had to button our jackets and hold our chests up and he had us marching around the living room, he says "A man stands with his chest up! Now walk!" [returns to his normal voice] And we walked and marched and everything. I mean we were playing, you know - it was easy to fall into his game, into his Royal Court game and allow them to be His Majesty.
MM
Now, do you think actually believed it? Was he to that point?
RS
Ah, it's not an easy question to answer. Remember he had been doing this for, you know, who knows, 20 or 30 years. I don't know if you ever saw the tape of him, on Grocho's You Bet Your Life. Well, I saw it, I actually saw it on television one night. They were doing reruns of Grocho on You Bet Your Life and who's one of the contestants? Lord Buckley, Richard Buckley. And he stood up straight and he had the same moustache but he talked something like this [talks vaguley like Lord Buckley] and he actually answered questions and - [returns to normal voice] I mean, it was obvious he had some presence but - some of the, you know, the ordinary horseshit regamoro that he carried with him had fallen aside a little bit, he was being - this was gig, he was being paid - He was in a movie called "We're Not Married" a tiny thing with Marilyn Monroe in it. He wanted to work. Sure, I mean, remember he did the chairs bit 9 times on Ed Sullivan, while always asking Sullivan if he could one of his, you know, The Hip Gan or something. He knew they wouldn't let him do Jonah or The Nazz but maybe The Hip Gan, maybe Cabaza De Vega, you know, The Gasser - they wouldn't. Or even
MM
Why wouldn't they?
RS
Because Ed Sullivan - I don't think Ed Sullivan could comprehend the beauty of the language. He understood circus acts, he understood a talking mouse, he understood the chairs bit with people, you know, being turned into dummies - but the sophisticated use of language of, you know, "Knock me your lobes. I come to lay Ceasar out not to hip you to him." [imitates Ed Sullivan] "What's he talking about? Buckley, forget it!"
MM
Well, do you think that Ed Sullivan represented sort of the conscience level that America was at at that time?
RS
Probably on a broad low level, he was very successful with middle america. He wasn't going to do anything that would shake 'em up at all. So, he didn't and he was quite successful that way.
MM
If you could speculate about - if he'd [Sullivan] let Buckley do The Gasser or Marc Antony, what do you think would have happened?
RS
Nothing.
MM
Would it have flopped?
RS
I don't think his audience would have know what he was doing but they would have been intrigued by his energy. That kind of energy, that people - it's fascinating. So, conceivably he would have sold some more records and maybe a jazz club would have booked him earlier. But I was around in New York when he - I assume you know what happened. He was working at The Jazz Gallery, he was making 600 dollars a week at that time, which is like 10,000 now in 1996. He was making big money, they were packing them in. And he had finally reached his audience, the jazz audience, who understood what he was talking about and appreciated it and cheered him. It was the highpoint of his life. And they busted him, they took away his caberet card because 18 years previously, in Texas, he had been busted for one, thin, New York style, marijuana cigarette. And had not been convicted. But this was 18 years later and at that time if you were ever arrested for a narcotic offense, you could not have a caberet card to work in New York City. And they pulled his caberet card and it was devastating to him. And as I mentioned Friday [during his performance at the Buckley Bash], I was at a party with Buckley two weeks before he died at the house of Jane Ross. And Dave Verne, Dave Verne was a brilliant comedy writer, walked over to Buckley and said, "Dick, the only thing that keeps you from being a legend is you're alive." And two weeks later Buckley had a stroke and split. And, as you probably know, the caberet card thing was fought for Buckley by a lawyer named Maxwell T. Cohen. And two months after Buckley died his caberet card arrived in the mail, as we said, post humourously.
MM
And you went to the funeral?
RS
Yes, we were all at the funeral.
MM
At the funeral home, at the funeral as well?
RS
Yeah, we were all there and then there was a party afterwards and -
MM
Could you describe some of that, like the funeral, I mean how he looked.
RS
He was wearing his, you know, white tie and tails, and -
MM
In the coffin, you mean.
RS
In the coffin, the coffin was open from the waist up as far as I could see. I don't think it was open there. But it was propped up a little bit and he was just lying there, looked like Lord Buckley asleep and - you know he was only 54 years old but he died of old age. He was a dissapator, a hard liver, and so he had a stroke, you know, something gave [in] but he could also of had a hard attack, he could have apoplexy, [imitates Buckley's voice] he was pumped up a lot of the time! [returns to his normal voice] And he would drink and smoke and, you know, I never sniffed coke with him but I know that he did everything in sight. And I'm sure it weakened his blood vessels and one of them popped. The - but, I'll tell you the interesting thing about doing the show, Lord Buckley's Finest Hour, the play I wrote with John Sinclair. We did it in 1983, we did it over the next couple of years, but we started in 1983. And as a result there were big articles about Buckley in the Los Angeles Times and everything. When he [Buckley] did Jonah and he did The Nazz in - before 1960 when he died, he was outrageous! How could anybody - he's calling Jesus Christ The Nazz because he's from Nazereth. Once Jesus Christ Superstar came in and universally appreciated and understood and Godspell and once the hippie movement came and in and everybody's smoking grass, Buckley was no longer outrageous. Up to the time - The Beatles came what, 1963? And that broke it open, The Living Theatre around that time, '63 '64, up to that time, no profanity was allowed to be said on the stage. I watched Lenny Bruce do his act, his profanity. The cops laughed all the way through it and at the end of his show, they busted him every night. There was a Supreme Court decision, I was working at The Living Theatre at the time, we were doing a play called The Connection , this is the very early '60s around '61. '61 we were doing it and they got busted because they used the word shit on the stage refering to heroin. And the Supreme Court decision was: "They are not refering to feces, it's a vernacular for dope, therefore they are permitted to use the word on the stage." That's the first time it was permitted, but it was the breakthrough. The next thing you know, every four letter word in the book is being used so, in other words, the shock value of a Lenny Bruce became part of the main stream of comedy. Not that Lenny wasn't more brilliant than most of them. Buckley became quaint, it doesn't mean his language is not brilliant, his concepts unbelievable, but the shock value, the outrageousness of standing on the stage and having Jonah [imitates the sound of sucking on a joint] roll a joint. And having Jesus called The Nazz, even though it was irreverent irreverence. I mean it was absolutely reverent his irreverence, in calling Mahatma Gandhi The Hip Gan, I felt, in the '80s, it had become quaint and-
MM
Did you sense that in your audiences [for Lord Buckley's Finest Hour] as well -
RS
The audiences, most, - anybody who had every heard of Buckley and their friends, came to see the show. The show did very well, but they sort of knew what they were coming for. Anybody who's turned on by semantics was always, was turned on by him [Buckley] anyway. But what I'm saying is that the outrageousness of actually talking about marijuana, actually calling Jesus The Nazz, that shock value, that outrageousness was gone, is gone.
MM
But stuff remains.
RS
Oh, his concepts, his language concepts are brilliant, yeah, absolutely and that's the tragedy of the thing was when he finally found his audience in 1960. They took his Caberet Card away and he was depressed and he died.
MM
Now, do you have any sense, I mean, he seemed like such a, I don't want to say "Bull in a china shop" because he seemed very adroit at manuevering through life.
RS
He had a certain grace about manuvering through life.
MM
Yeah, I mean he definately was like a train going pretty full tilt. Why do you think it was that particular incident, I mean there must have been other incidents where life didn't hand him the right card -
RS
He never before had reached the place, the very place, that he had been working towards and aspiring towards all his life.
MM
This was a broken dream.
RS
This was, he got it, he got the Holy Graille and somebody smashed it just as he's about to drink. And, who knows, we don't know what's going on in people's blood vessels, whether the anger or the depression or the rage hurried his stroke or not we can't say for sure, but it very well may have hastened it. He may have had a stroke,you know, two weeks later anyway, we don't, you know, he did abuse his body. And there was a duality in his spiritual pronoucements which surpised me. Because he's doing a piece called "The Gasser" where a man is somehow able to receive a healing power and do something in a way by the grace of God. And he, I think he felt the essence of The Nazz and yet he's got this little piece called "I'm a People Worshiper" [imitates Buckley's voice] "people should be able to worship something they can get their hands on, I tried talking to God the other day, but I couldn't pin him. So I think we should worship people" [returns to his normal voice] Now, I think that diametrically opposed to the spiritual message in a way. He doesn't say, "Worship the essence of Our Maker in people." He doesn't say, "Worship our spiritual essence." What he's really saying was that there are great people on earth, and since there is no God let's worship these great people: and people who are wonderful people, who are good to other people who help other people. But he was, in a way, denying that high spiritual essence that I, myself, feel strongly about now that I was able to contact it. But at that time [I] felt the same way he did. At that time it had not revealed itself to me. At that time we were all taking acid and smoking grass and looking for other doors of perception, as Huxely put it in his book. And eating peyote cactus and searching for other experiences and other worlds and perhaps searching for contact with the divine. I think we were all there but it had not been revealed to us yet.
MM
I think another dicotomy, maybe it's a third leg of this little tripod, is the utter, what I see as the utter juxstaposition, or dialectic almost, of The Nazz versus The Bad Rapping of the Marquis de Sade.
RS
His product is outrageousness, yeah.
MM
I talked with one fellow, I don't think you'd know him. But he was made a prince late in the game, March or April of '60. He met Buckley at Stanford, or at Palo Alto at the Outside at the Inside. He said that, he felt that Buckley was just messing around with the Marquis de Sade.
RS
Oh, yeah, it was a joke.
MM
You don't feel that that was -
RS
No, no, that was, he'd say anything - it was a joke. Remember that this is a man who when booked by Frank Sinatra into The Royal Hilton Hotel in Hawaii, got a band of followers over there and walked through the lobby of the Hilton Hotel naked with them following him. He'd do anything, he'd say anything.
MM
Do you think he would shot himself in the foot?
RS
Absolutely.
MM
On purpose?
RS
No, that's part of him: testing the limits. He was definately a limits tester.
MM
So you don't think it was some deep pyschological flaw where he would get close and blow it?
RS
That could be. I've known many comedians who have that syndrome. I've been close friends who shot themselves in the foot just as they are about to step onto the stage of the bigtime. I don't think that's what happened at the end of Buckley's life. I don't think - that's what must have shaken him so much: that he didn't shot himself in the foot, he did everything right, he got his audience, he's doing his material, they're loving it. And something he had set up in the past, 18 years earlier, came back. And who could conceive of that?
MM
Would you say that there was, I guess this is a two part question. First part would be: Is there such a thing as a profile of a comedian?
RS
I recommend two films: The Comic by Dick Van Dyck and Mr. Saturday, Billy Crystal. And The Comic was sort of about a Buster Keaton character who is a son-of-a-bitch but funny. And Mr. Saturday Night had the essence of many comedians that I know. Rent them, take a look at them. And if you - I have to also mention that if you are renting films, the King of Comedy, Robert Deniros picture. He's brilliant in that. But many of them [comedians] are self destructive. Many of them will shot themselves in the foot. Many of them will get stuck in a tangent. I think the funniest comedian in America today is George Hopkins. You never heard of George Hopkins. He lives and works in Florida, like Mr. Saturday Night. He works in the condominiums and the ships, summertime he comes up and works in the mountains [the Catskills]. He never was on television. A couple little appearances years ago. But he makes a lot of money in Florida and he calls it "green death." He makes money and it leads nowhere. He's got a nice condominium, his wife is a songwriter. It's - then he shot himself in the foot many times. George said "fuck you" to Ed Sullivan. He won the Arthur Godfrey Talent Scouts forty years ago, he said "fuck you" to Arthur Godfrey. He would get the best gig in the world and show up drunk. That has changed in the last twenty years since he's been with his wife, yeah. And he doesn't do that anymore but by that time his reputation preceded him anywhere he went. And he ended up working in Florida making a very good living.
MM
How about - where was Buckley, I mean did Buckley fit the profile of a comic? Was he -
RS
Oh, yeah. He was up all night, he was drinking, he was carousing, he was taking, you know, whatever drugs were around, and he was, you know, stuppen [having sex with] the chorus girls and leading that narcissistic, destructive life. Absolutely. I knew his wife before Lady Elizabeth, Joanne Dorm. She was crazy. I mean she was bananas. She was another paranoid maniac. And, of course, the subsequent conflagration between the two of them that they broke up. But she was, I mean, certifiably insane [he laughs] and he was with her for a number of years. And, you know, you can't - if you are with somebody crazy, you either have to be crazy or be crazy enough to ignore them, you know.
MM
Did you ever see him when he wasn't Lord Buckley?
RS
I saw him, I've had conversations with him when he was a little less of Lord Buckley. But it never left entirely.
MM
What were the circumstances?
RS
Just hanging out talking. Yeah, he'd come off the mid-Atlantic tone a little bit and - it was a mid-Atlantic tone that he had and he saved the black jazz riff for the pieces, for the numbers.
MM
Do you remember him heavy - there being flax about his black dialect
RS
No. No. The audiences were he worked - I don't remember any flax, until he coined his phrase. The only thing "American Beauty" we ever heard of was the American Beauty Rose, which was a very popular, very beautiful red flower, called The American Beauty Rose. And when he introduced his dialect by saying "I fell in love -", you know, "The dialect of the American Beauty Negro" that also at that time was shocking to some and very gratifying to everyone else. This was a time before there were any blacks on television, I mean, none! The whole situation has changed a lot since the mid-'60s. So, anybody who would have objected when they hear "American Beauty Negro" and his admiration of this dialect and these people and, you know, words with such beauty, [they'd say] "Go ahead, Buckley, swing, let's hear some more!"
MM
And he was fairly physical I guess.
RS
He was robust, yes. Stood straight. He was about six feet tall and strong, robust.
MM
How about in his act?
RS
He didn't move around a whole lot. He stayed in one place but his energy was there, he would move from here to here, this side of the mic, this side of the mic, sometimes without a microphone. But he like to have a mic to do: vrrrrrrrrrrpppppppp!!!
MM
Now, can you tell me - I mean that's a mystery - can you tell me how that's done?
RS
I don't know. Vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrpppp! But when you do that vrrrrrrrrrrrrrppppp into a micrphone, you heard me do it the other night [at the Buckley 90th Birthday Bash].
MM
It was very effective.
RS
And we would go Wala! into the microphone, and he would emphasis phrases. His mic technique was great.
MM
It was another instrument.
RS
And vrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooMM
MM
You heard him sing?
RS
Oh, he sang all the time, you know, he would sing When The Saints Go Marching In. And he always did, you know, [imitates Buckley's voice] "And The Nazz said, [hums Rock of Ages], Stay cool, baby." [returns to his normal voice] But he also sang like Louis Armstrong, at the end of The Nazz. He would go into a, you know, a riff based on Louis Armstrong.
MM
You're feeling again, as an actor, and a student of the body really, was he, did he do this by instinct? Was he an instinctual performer, because he wasn't schooled in theatre arts -
RS
Remember, he started performing with a monkey in his act at the Walkathons, Danceathons in Chicago, I guess it was in the '20s. And when you start doing a nightclub act, the schooling takes place through experience. He served an apprenticeship as an MC, as a comedian. I don't know what other routines he had besides the chairs. Oh, yes I do, he also sometime, during this time, developed a routine - Paul Newman's grandfather, Newman -
MM
Joseph.
RS
Joseph Newman had a piece pre-Buckley about, Leviathan it was called, about a whale, about Moby Dick. There were poems like The Face On The Barroom Floor and The Killing of Dan McGroo. And I believe Buckley did some of that kind of material, those recitations. And then, of course, he developed his piece called God's Own Drunk, which is a great piece. [It's] about a guy finding a still in the woods, and meeting a bear and then getting drunk together. And this was all pre-hippie stuff, pre, you know, hipsemantic stuff. And that was part of his act, and he would occasionally - I saw him do God's Own Drunk many times. It was from his old act and he liked to do it and it got a great response. So, in other words he was doing, for years, an ordinary comic act with the great innovation of the chairs.
MM
And you feel that he just slowly honed it, slowly was polishing a huge lens for -
RS
I would say he probably tried a little segment of Jonah or The Nazz. The Nazz was originally called Three Miracles [that] was the name of the piece, as Buckley wrote it and did it. The three miracles was the guy with the bent frame, the loaves and the fishes was the last one and I guess the third one was stomping across the water. But he called it the piece about the three miracles later. Meanwhile he was talking about this guy from Nazareth and then he changed the name to The Nazz.
MM
I talked with Prince Vaughn, he said that he was sitting at a table at this nightclub with Buckley, between sets. And Buckley talked about - he was working on The Nazz Part II.
RS
Could be.
MM
Yeah, what he [Prince Vaughn] said was, "The only line I remember is that some of the disciples were disputing about who dug The Nazz the most. And The Nazz says, 'Well, what are you babies going on about?' 'Well, Nazz, were trying to figure out who digs you the most." And The Nazz says, 'Well, I don't know which of you'", This is at the Last Supper.
RS
Yeah.
MM
"I don't know which of you cats digs me the most but I know at this table is a finger-poppin' fink that's going to sell me out before sunrise."
RS
Now, I've heard that before somewhere, I don't remember where I heard that -
MM
Well, in fact I told Oliver [Trager] about it, and Oliver'd heard, where he heard it - maybe he heard it from Vaughn too.
RS
But, for Buckley to say, "I'm going to do The Nazz Part II" and to do The Nazz Part II is two different stories. What it means is that he came up with one good line and said, "Maybe I could do a sequel."
MM
This brings up a point I'd like to ask you about: What routines, what material that he didn't create, what would you, like if you got to suggest material for him to develop what would you love to see him attempt?
RS
I don't know. Well, Mother Goose poems would have been interesting done Buckley style. I was just thinking, "What about Shakespeare?" Now, he did, of course, start, I don't know how far he went in Hamlet's soliloquy. All I remember him saying was, [imitates buckley's voice] "To swing or not to swing, that is the hanger." [returns to normal voice] But that's all I remember of the opening of that. Now I don't know if that's - I forgot all about that. I don't know if the whole solioquy is recorded or not ever.
MM
It has, actually I've heard -
RS
The whole thing?
MM
Yeah, I don't know if it follows -
RS
That's another one. And I sure like the Gettysburg Address. He used to do that occasionally, that was brilliant. So whatever - I think any familiar document or speech - I think the important thing is that the story be familiar. His thing of Nero was - he did it right after he saw the movie Quo Vadis, which was a big Hollywood spectactular movie about the Romans. He sees Quo Vadis. He went right out and wrote the Nero piece, entirely based on the movie, without the reference [imitates Buckley's voice] [to] "Knock a gold spike where that chick blew!" [returns to his normal voice] Without, you know, you lose some of the reference. What I'm saying is any familiar material he could have done. This guy Horowitz [performer Mikhail Horowitz] who did The Killing of Dan's Guru - that's absolutely Buckleyesque approach. I thought he was terrific. I loved what he did.
MM
Yeah, it had that spirit didn't it?
RS
Absolutely had the spirit and the use of language, I mean the guy is a bright guy and literary I guess. And he delivered it well.
MM
Do you think, if Buckley had lived say another ten years, would have found the success that, to say it like God's Own Drunk, evaded him? Would he have become the darling of the hippies?
RS
Of the hippies? Perhaps, yeah, probably. But I don't know whether he would have found the vast audience. I don't know if - who knows? I mean comedians like George Carlin have - we used to work together in the village, in the clubs and he worked and he developed and he became - in a way he was influenced by Lord Buckley and by Lenny Bruce and - many people were influenced by both of them. I'll tell you though, when I worked - I was at the Village Gate for three years, from '88 to '91 - our show was completely improvised: two 50 minute shows every Friday and every Saturday and we never repeated anything. And on the bill with us each weekend would be three comedians, an emcee and two others. And I would say one of them out of 40 we worked with, 50, maybe one was influenced by Buckley, maybe. In that they[the comedian] explored language, and took us somewhere with the mind. Some of them explored - some of them took off from Lenny Bruce in use of views of society including use of profanity. Buckley was never profane. He never cursed on the stage.
MM
Why?
RS
Because it's not necessary. I mean, even now when we were on the bill with all these comedians, who were saying "fuck" every other word, I told my troupe, "Don't use language, it's not necessary for humor." I said, you know, "Once every six months if it's absolutely necessary slip one "fuck" in. Then it has shock value." But we kept it without the profanity as much as possible.
MM
Well, I can imagine that Buckley used expletives quite liberally off the stage.
RS
I dont' remember.
MM
No?
RS
I don't remember him doing that. He always kept a certain dignity. Of course, there is always a difference if there are two or more people around, or if you are one to one with him. Anytime, with a comedian, if there's two or more people they are always at least a little bit on. [MM
MM
It's just you and I in this room, so -
RS
Now, the last thing I'd like to say is the thing I mentioned [at the Buckley 90th Birthday Bash] - I think it's the first time I mentioned it, although I did write about it once. Sometime between five and 10 years after Buckley died, my life was in the bottom of a trough, in terms of what was happening financially, and I had children at that time, and we had no money and no work, and everything was devastated. And I felt Buckley come to me in a dream one night and he said, [imitating Buckley's voice] "Have courage, great warrior!" [returns to his normal voice] And I've, since then, always hooked onto that a little bit. Now, whatever - it felt like a spiritual essence touched me and Buckley was important in my life so it, you know, maybe came through the filter of my imagination or what I saw in my subconcious as somebody who would say something like that. But the message was clear and it was a Buckleyesque message, [imitates Buckley's voice] "Have courage, great warrior!" [returns to his normal voice] and it's sort of been my motto and it's been a long time now since then, this is - he died thirty-six years ago - so, I have a very warm place in my heart for His Majesty. [Richmond laughs]
MM
Well, Richmond, thank you very much for speaking with me.
RS
It's a pleasure.
MM
Now, I'm going to pull back [the video camera] so everyone can see your painting.
RS
Oh, would you like to see one of my paintings? It's over my head.
MM
There you go. Maybe we'll just zoom right into it and fade out |
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