WS
You're the only woman I know that seems to be into Lord Buckley. What was it about him that attracted you?
MC
His language. But not only his language, well, his spirit, let's say it that simply. The first time I heard him I understood him right away, none of this having to play it over and over again to try to understand any of that. It was very clear to me. And I loved it. It made me laugh and I could play the same thing over and over again and laugh.
WS
You were pretty hip, you hadn't heard Lord Buckley and you picked up on it right away.
MC
Well, I think, I don't know, yeah, maybe I was just hip from up front, you know? But, to me, I'm not sure why people would have a harder time digging him, you know. But, then sometimes I have a hard time being understood, so, maybe that's why.
WS
Pushed your soul button.
MC
Yeah. But, I don't know why I'm the only woman that's going to be there doing that Friday night [the Buckley 90th Birthday Bash, April 12, 1996]. It's OK with me Iâ guess, you know. But, I never really thought of myself as, oh, a woman Lord Buckley interpreter, you know. It just, in fact I never really thought of myself as a Lord Buckley interpreter, I just thought of myself as someone who was inspired by Lord Buckley. And who, in my own work, I have to give credit to and say, "Well, a lot of the spirit of this and inspiration comes from having listened to Lord Buckley many, many times."
MM
Do you remember the first time you heard him?
MC
Yeah, I had left home and moved in with a musician who's girlfriend had left behind her Lord Buckley records. And I put one on and just sat there entranced, you know, just sort of amazed that this existed, you know. And so I remember that very clearly. And then a couple of weeks later she came and got all her records and I couldn't say anything. But I was very upset that they were going and I hadn't even bothered to copy them onto tape or something, you know. And so I had listened to them very intensely over a few weeks period and then I actually didn't get a chance to hear Lord Buckley again for a long time after that. But it had already made a deep, deep impression on me.
MM
How old were you?
MC
I was seventeen, yeah.
MM
It's the same time I ran into him. Was there a piece that stuck with you at that period of time?
MC
No, it was the language that stuck with me more than anything, the language which I knew came from a whole tradition but which I thought he used with particular genius. And I started doing it myself right away. Not doing Lord Buckley, but I started sort of incorporating it in my writing at the time. I wasn't really performing my writing but I started trying to be expressive in the way he was with the language that I was hearing in the streets, and trying to put that into my writing.
MM
What did he say to you?
MC
He said, well, "If you're going to say it, say it in a way that makes people laugh. Because, if they're not going to laugh, they're going to cry." I mean, take Black Cross, what a tragic story. And what a true American story. And, how can he make you laugh at the same time, but he does. And somehow there is hope in laughter. And we all need that hope.
MM
Well, let me ask you what do you think that quality is? That he is able to make, I mean the Hezikiah Jones story is pretty tragic, but there is within that something that keeps you from just like jumping out a window. What does he do?
MC
He lives by what he preaches. I mean the sense of living in the moment and being, he's really truly believing what he was saying. As crazy, as insane, and as notorious as he was, you know, which I've learned about him much later of course, there's, through all that [is] an essence that you get of his work, of his being, living in the moment and not theorizing to you or to her or to anyone, but just saying, you know, "Here we are. And you're breathing and I'm breathing. And, you know, let's smile about it." Which is very profound really, as cliché as it sounds.
MM
No, that's nice. What pieces, you do some of Lord Buckley's pieces -
MC
Well, I guess that depends on how you define my work. I have performed Lord Buckley's stories at various times. And I love to do it. And I always get a great response from audiences. They love it. Even if they don't always understand all of it. Overall people do, I think they connect to the stories and they like them. And so I like to return to that every once in a while because I do give him credit for inspiring the stories that I like to tell. And so, it's like playing a jazz standard or something, you know, you just, you return to some of those things - and each time you find something else in the mechanics of it or the technique of it that helps you -
MM
I know you do some stuff that's probably just your own. It's not even in the Buckley vein, I would assume. So, when you do Lord Buckley's material is there - I know that you said that audiences appreciated it - I guess I can't quite put my finger on what I want to ask you.
MC
Well, you know, when I do it [perform Lord Buckley routines], in some ways I really try to imitate what I know from what I've heard. And in other ways I really don't. I bring myself to it, you know. And that's all I really want to do. First of all, maybe because I am a woman - just the impossibility of being like Lord Buckley up on the stage, it's ridiculous, you know. But it's not about that. It's about the message of - with me it's about the words. I'm a word smith. And so for me that's the most basic connection.
MM
When you do the Lord Buckley material, do you feel at all like a messenger? Do you feel like something comes through you at all?
MC
Yeah.
MM
I don't mean like a channeler.
MC
Well, what every you want to call it, you know. Because the genius - it's constructed so well. And I'm saying that as a writer who looks at the structure of a story, that you just get carried along so easily. And it's right there for you, so as a performer you never feel lost for the moment. And that's again where I like to return sometimes because I've had these embarrassing moments, in performing my own work, where I felt like I was in this space that wasn't working and I didn't - and I had to find somewhere to go, you know. And I'm sure most performers have felt that at sometime or another. And you work you're way out of it and that's how you learn things. But when you do a Lord Buckley piece you don't get caught anywhere in there, in that kind of feeling. And so, in that sense, I do feel transported by it because I know when I do that piece it's going to be right there for me. And all I have to do is have fun in the presentation ofî it.
MM
It's the jazz standard thing like you said.
MC
Yes, truly.
MM
Well, that brings up a good point. As a performer, would it be far to say that you think that his pieces are really well constructed then?
MC
I do. "Jonah and the Whale" and "The Nazz" and then, of course, you know "The Train." I don't know of anyone who's ever been able to do "The Train" other than Lord Buckley. But what a performance.
MM
If for nothing more than that sound, that incredible sound, that whooooo!
MC
Right, it makes me think of Raashan [Raashan Roland Kirk] with his two horns and all that sort of thing. It's that amazing physical vitality, you know. And perhaps even Lord Buckley couldn't do that - wouldn't be able to do that if he was ninety and standing before us today. Maybe that was just at a certain time in his life really that he was capable of that. But it's truly shocking to me really to experience that kind of performance energy.
MM
Is there anything as a performer in his pieces, I think this is what I was trying to get at before - are there anythings in the recordings and his writings, well, I guess the performance stuff, that - it might be because you're a performer that you would be aware of things that he's doing that wouldn't necessarily stand out but that are really critical to what he does?
MC
So many things, so many things because - take all his different accents, you know. He can speak, he could speak like an English Lord. He could speak in so many different ways. And that's quite amazing really. And then the range of his voice, you know, all the dynamics of his voice, from using his high registers to his low registers to his low registers to the volume, the sheer volume. And then all of these great sounds that would be the envy of half the sound effects crews in radio across the country, that he made with his, with his voice, with his body. Truly amazing, all of that. And he used all of that, he used his stature, he used everything that he had and to me that was also his message, you know: to use all of your attributes and you will survive. And I think he survived in that way, he lived his life that way. He didn't do this after five o'clock, you know.
MM
That's something that's come up a number of times, the idea that - everybody sort of has the feeling that he was probably on all the time. And the stage was just the place that he happened to, you know - that [it] was part of his day was being on stage but that the performance -
MC
I think probably - of course I never meet Lord Buckley. I was born after he died. My imagination about him is exactly that: that all the world's a stage. And he was constantly making his entrances from all sorts of other places where he may just have made an exit. I think that's probably very true. And I think for a long time, maybe I'm getting old now, I'm all of 33 but I think for a long time, I attempted to live by that ethic, you know, as a vagabond across Europe for eight years. And perhaps -
MM
Plus your child?
MC
Pardon me?
MM
With your child in tow?
MC
She was born in Paris.
MM
Oh, romantic!
MC
Huh?
MM
Romantic.
MC
That's right. And so, I don't know how much of that was because I had this crazy image of being something like Lord Buckley. But, it's not an easy one to live, you know, but it does force you to draw on what you have within yourself to offer to people, so that they think it's worthwhile to have you in their midst, even though you haven't been out on the fields doing all kind of stuff. So, and you have to ask yourself that, "Well, why aren't I doing that? You know, why do I think I'm out here doing this?"
MM
Do you have an answer?
MC
I do. For me it's very - I think it's very personal for anyone but on the most basic level I believe that I'm offering something to our society that it needs. But somebody does have to do some thing about where we are all and how we relate to each other as we get there. And that's a function within our society which maybe's under appreciated, I think, you know? But, I don't know if that necessarily means he [Lord Buckley] should have borrowed money from all his friends and never paid it back and a whole lot of kind of stuff that you hear. But then, you know, if they laughed about it who knows maybe that is what is suppose to happen.
MM
Well there is - Oliver [biographer Oliver Trager] was talking about how - someone's quote is that, you know, "To know Lord Buckley was to have him owe you." [quote of Charles Talcot] so that's maybe a liner note.
MC
Right.
MM
He felt that it was, perhaps somewhat of an honor to have Lord Buckley hit you up for money. So tell me a little bit about Nicholas Tesla, you're -
MC
Nicola Tesla.
MM
Nicola Tesla.
MC
Well, that's certainly a piece [one of Martha's routines called "Tesla Vision"] where you can trace a lot of Lord Buckley in the piece. I don't know how to tell you about it other than just to tell you the story, you know. But I, he -
MM
I mean do you do his whole life or just a certain section?
MC
No, I sort of emphasis the story of him and Edison.
MM
The struggle they had over AC versus DC?
MC
Yeah, basically and it winds up where you understand that Tesla basically relinquished all his financial rights to what would amount to royalties on electricity. And claimed that he knew a way for people to get electricity from the ground that no one would have to pay for. And I like to leave that hanging in the air with people. And then remind them of the name that's on their electricity bill it's Con Edison, at least here in New York, you know. So, that's sort of the message of the Tesla story.
MM
The implication of "con" and "Edison"?
MC
Well, you know, you can interpret it as you wish.
MM
OK.
MC
But that's where the story goes, and in a sort of twisted Lord Buckley kind of way in the same sense that he starts Nero out talking about Nero and winds up talking about Oo-Babalap and you figure out that it's really a story about this guy, you know. Tesla kind of takes that structure too because I start out asking people if they know who invented the radio. And most people, if anybody has any idea who invented the radio, usually their hand shoots up and they say, "Marconi." And the Supreme Court, here in the United States actually decided, not until 1962, that Nicola Tesla was the inventor of the radio. And most people have never heard of him and don't realize that our whole twentieth century landscape, in many ways, is coming out of his visions.
MM
I'm [referring to a radio signal coming over the headphones on the tape recorder] getting a radio signal.
MC
You are? Oh, yeah, well, you know there's lots of cops.
MM
Yeah.
MC
All around here, you know. All the telephones on the street are bugged. And the cops are all around, you know, chasing poor folks in the neighborhood.
MM
It's what - I mean, cops I think have a great investment in there being crime in the world, or their imagination that there's crime in the world too. What conditions do you think - well this is just sort of speculation. What conditions do you think, what kind of situation would have to exist before Buckley would become popular? I mean it's fairly esoteric appreciation.
MC
I think Buckley is popular, his influence is in a lot of places.
MM
Like what?
MC
Look at the list of people that Oliver Trager has interviewed. All of whom either knew him or acknowledged his influence. It's pervasive. So I, personally I don't think you have to look very far to see Lord Buckley. But it's very similar to, again, speaking about jazz, how many people that listen torock and roll, who listen to The Rolling Stones or to, I don't know, who ever they all are? How many of them acknowledge, or even know, where that comes from, you know? How many of them know anything about Louis Armstrong or Art Tatum or Fats Waller or would even give credit to Sun Ra maybe for being the real first rock star, you know. For coming out in those crazy outfits and doing all that wild, crazy, creative kind of stuff he did, you know. And now you see all these, you know, white boys with torn jeans, who probably never heard of Sun Ra. And don't realize they are imitating him and James Brown and all that stuff, you know. So, to me, I mean Lord Buckley came out of that tradition, you know. And he owes a debt to that whole jazz language that he basically used. Although I don't believe he stole it. I wouldn't personally speak that way about it. Because I think he used it with great genius. And he acknowledged where it came from. But when I see Richard Pryor, or I don't know, Robin Williams, any number of people. His influence is there, it's inescapable. But it's actually part of the tradition.
MM
How about someone like Robin Williams? Do you see it in him at all? He's an admirer of Lord Buckley.
MC
Oh, I'm sure. I mean look at Robin William's great vitality and energy. I think he has that in common with Lord Buckley. And I'm trying to think who is similar in terms of the language. And I can't really think of anyone. But I think it's more, it's a funny thing because this is where I connect with Lord Buckley again. He told stories, he told these long stories. And so when I look at a lot of these comedians that I've seen on screen like Richard Pryor or Eddie Murphy, all those kind of really brilliant comedians, but I don't get that kind of, almost around the fire kind of storytelling feeling that Lord Buckley had. Maybe Ken Kesey, I think he carries that tradition in his novels. And he, I was lucky enough to meet him once and I got that vitality from him. And the w ay he spoke with me was very creative in the sense of the language. And I actually asked him about Lord Buckley and he went right into a Lord Buckley spiel without even taking a breath So that was great, but that's my connection with him [Lord Buckley] because I was storytelling. And I still am a storyteller and I do it for little kids and they don't know that I'm quoting from Lord Buckley when I tell them a souped up story about Cinderella. They don't know where that's coming from but they connect with it. They understand it, they laugh. So, I'm not sure where I see it on a popular level but I know that it's existing in my life and as I perform and do different things, every once in a while someone will ask me, "Lord Buckley?" they'll look at me and [say] "Lord Buckley.". And they're somebody who knows Lord Buckley and heard, however remote or whatever strain of it I happen to be using, you know, they would hear it. So, I know he's in the air. Will he ever be as popular as Michael Jackson? I doubt it. He's too brilliant. Just as Charlie Parker never, I mean, look at that phenomenon. People know about him all over the world. They know about Lord Buckley, maybe not as much as Charlie Parker and yet he never achieved that superstar status either. So, to me, that's almost like a silly questions. I don't mean to be rude but -
MM
No, that's all right.
MC
But, the greatest things never reach that stature. They can't because they're - what do you call it when you paint a fence white? What do you call it? Whitewashed.
MM
Whitewashed.
MC
Yeah. I think also, he's dead. It's not like he's going to keep putting out records and go through this whole promotional kind of thing and become more popular. But people know about him in strange places -
MM
For instance?
MC
Well, like the email I got from Israel. People know about Lord Buckley. And I think that that will continue.
MM
Would you have liked to have met him?
MC
Well, absolutely. Of course, but who knows maybe I would have been - for all I know I probably would have - we probably would have got in a fight or something, who knows.
MM
One strong force versus another strong force.
MC
Who knows. I might not have even liked him or something. I doubt that seriously but many times I've met - I've been lucky in life I think, in my short life, to have met some really, really talented and special people. Some of them were special people on a personal level too. And someone of them I would never want to meet again. Even though I don't mind hearing them on the radio or something. To me, we all have a breaking point in life where we are not what we would like be, you know. And none of us are in a position to judge anyone else. But we can get something from people's work, the legacy they leave.
MM
That's a good question. What is his legacy? What is it that he has bequeathed say to performers?
MC
I guess all the things I spoken about in the last half hour. That -
MM
The love of language.
MC
The language, and I guess, in the end, the ability to reach deep into yourself and pull amazing things out. I think he did that. And he inspires me to do that. So that's his legacy with me. And I guess I've written about that in my book [DREAMSCAPE: Real Dreams Really Make A Difference] -
MM
Is there anything you would like to say?
MC
Well, it's been a gas sitting here talking to you, you know. The vibe's been great.
MM
Thank you very much.
MC
And all due respects to the spirit of Lord Buckley.
MM
Yeah. I'm sureThe - I just keep thinking that, you know, if there was a space that somebody could watch. I mean somebody who's dead from the world could watch all of us, I think he would be pleased at what transpires. You know, people get together. Like Friday night, I'm anticipating a really good vibe.
MC
Well, I'm really looking forward to doing this event Friday night. And I'm excited to be there at a point in my life where I'm working with a band like he did and think it's going to be great, so -
MM
Well, good luck on Friday.
MC
Thank you.
MM
We'll be rooting for you.
MC
OK.
MM
Walt, do you have anything that you'd like to say, or ask? [Walt shakes his head "no"] OK, well over and out.
MC
Alright.
MM
Thank you very much, Martha.
MC
Thank you.
WS
So, there's going to be a band?
MC
Yeah.
WS
Backing up -
MC
Po'azz Yo'azz backing up me.